Sony 8K CineAlta rumor

DLD said:
Last night, I was flipping through the channels and stopped for a few glimpses at it is known in the US as the "Spanish soap" (can be shot anywhere in Central/South America or the US). They were definitely using multiple (3-4) cameras but the editing wasn't as predictable on the US soaps. It didn't look like a feature, obviously, but it wasn't that bad. Their cuts were faster and camera angles fairly diverse. It was still two dimensional - as Charles Papert predicted - but IMO, one could work off that. The size of the upcoming gear and the ability to control their motion via some sort of a joystick will have its appeal.
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We all know that Soap Operas have always been shot multi-cam/"live" style and with fairly flat, overhead lighting. Most sit-coms are the same way. There are times when you need multiple cameras at the same time(there are times even in big budget features where it's a benefit/necessity) and other times it's a hinderance(trade-off/sacrifice to lighting and/or camera angle).
 
Run&Gun said:
We all know that Soap Operas have always been shot multi-cam/"live" style and with fairly flat, overhead lighting. Most sit-coms are the same way. There are times when you need multiple cameras at the same time(there are times even in big budget features where it's a benefit/necessity) and other times it's a hinderance(trade-off/sacrifice to lighting and/or camera angle).
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I don't know if anyone has seen any of Hulu's resuscitation attempts of "One Life to Live" and "All My Children" but they were using a Steadicam on several scenes and still managed to do up to 140 pages per day (granted, with multiple sets and multiple actors) and that's a movie-a-day pace. To me, this means that there can be a happy medium ground for productions with a higher budget and the desire to get more of a "film look" and yet willing to live with some of the compromises that a multiple camera production affords.

And, some others may agree.

HuffPost TV has learned exclusively that Academy Award-winning writer-director Francis Ford Coppola spent some time on the set of "The Young and the Restless" this week. Apparently, he is interested in learning more about multi-camera and live TV and was on set and in the control room of the hit CBS daytime soap...
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/24/francis-ford-coppola-young-and-the-restless_n_3983977.html
 
Why is this whole single-cam/multi-cam discussion even happening here? Trying to project the future in this fashion is pretty silly - we won't know who was right until it's in the rear-view mirror.

Styles of shooting go in and out of fashion, and each has it's benefits and drawbacks. Could the market swing towards dramatic multi-cam? It's possible. It could also swing right back. If you've got a horse in the race, bet it. But defensively prognosticating on the forums really doesn't get anyone anywhere.
 
Viddovation said:
Why is this whole single-cam/multi-cam discussion even happening here? Trying to project the future in this fashion is pretty silly - we won't know who was right until it's in the rear-view mirror.

Styles of shooting go in and out of fashion, and each has it's benefits and drawbacks. Could the market swing towards dramatic multi-cam? It's possible. It could also swing right back. If you've got a horse in the race, bet it. But defensively prognosticating on the forums really doesn't get anyone anywhere.
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I've been waiting 40 years for long zooms to come back in fashion. And crash zooms. I like to introduce a character with a crash zoom. And possibly some funk/soul.
 
Paul schefz said:
of course things aren't that simple for BM....i would say that the ursa 4.6 has to be better then arri and red to really make waves in the highest end.....the big problem for the highest end is simply that it keeps getting smaller and smaller and there are plenty of cameras out there now nowhere near arri and red that are eating into the rental market for commercial,....budgets are getting tighter every day....
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True, budgets are shrinking, but that doesn't change the fact that BM doesn't have anywhere near the track record for reliability that Arri or Sony have. No DoP in his right mind is going to take the risk of replacing an Alexa / Sony A-Camera with a BM camera on a feature or commercial, unless they are given no choice. Some of them may even walk away from the job, because at the end of the day if something goes wrong with the camera it will be their head for not insisting on an Arri or Sony. Back in the day there used to be a saying: 'Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM." It's not just about performance, but reliability, reputation and politics.

i would argue that BM maybe has the best color science team out there and in general a software division better then anyone, they have to because they are going head to head with adobe and apple....and they are giving it away for free....i wonder how many people knew about resolve 5 years ago and how many people are using it on a constant base today.....this is a huge advantage for BM....
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I've known one of the guys working on color at Arri for over 20 years. A company that I used to work for was a beta site for the Arri scanner and laser recorder. Arri has about 20 plus years of R&D invested in color science and it shows in the image that their cameras produce. Same for Sony. They have been building broadcast cameras for decades and are the world leader in sensor design. All that Sony needs to do is get away from the broadcast color look and lean more cinematic. BM has good color science, but they are not Arri or Sony. And as far as Davinci goes it is a piece of code they purchased from another company. Same for Fusion. They didn't write either program from scratch. BM is not Baselight, when it comes to color science.

and in terms of connectivity i really don't see anything wrong with the ursa mini or the ursa....same sensor.....should be a pretty great combo....and buying 2 cameras for the price of the rental of one is hard to argue with, including support...
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Take a close look at the wireless connectivity etc on an Alexa. It's a whole different beast.

By the way, apparently you can't get a BM camera serviced once it's out of factory warranty.

in a pinch, just call up B&H and have one overnighted to save a production.....but in reality you probably have a couple on hand anyway....
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So, when your camera breaks down at 11:00 in the morning and you're burning $100,000 a day on set, you're going to send everyone home while you wait for FedEx to deliver you another camera? How well do you think that will go over?

How do you explain to the actor / director / producer that you just lost their Oscar (tm) winning take, because your $5000 camera failed? All cameras fail, but the fail rate on a Sony or Arri is extremely low compared to BM track record. Also politics. 'Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM." If your F55 / Alexa fails it was an act of God. If your non-premium brand Ursa fails you go from being the hero who saved production all that money, to the guy who ordered the bargain basement package and cost the production time and money.


i don't think this is overnight transition....it will be a slow one but that only makes it more painful for the highest end....
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Prices always come down, but there is a reason beyond tech specs that you pay a premium for on top of the line pro gear.

And just for the record I have a Ursa Mini 4.6k on preorder. I may cancel it, simply because I'm going into a show and don't want to do that with an unproven camera and given BM track record. I may just stay with my F3L for the moment. People can say what you want about Sony, but their cameras are as reliable as a hockey puck.
 
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DLD said:
What's the Alexa65 rental like, about five times of the "regular"? So, it would be about $300,000. Then again, IMO, they're keeping this artificial scarcity going for some reason. Unless they're short of the rehoused Hasselblad 65mm lenses, they could have easily made several hundred of the Alexa65.
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There are only so many movies shot per year with a big enough budget to support digital 65mm. I'm not just talking about the rental cost. The whole infrastructure and pipeline of a 65mm production is a lot more resource intensive aka expensive than shooting 2.8-4k.

If there is a serious shortage and Arri can depend on bodies being booked long enough to make a return on their investment they will make more bodies. They have nothing to gain form starving the market.
 
Viddovation said:
Why is this whole single-cam/multi-cam discussion even happening here? Trying to project the future in this fashion is pretty silly - we won't know who was right until it's in the rear-view mirror...
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IMO, automated camera arms controlled by joystick is the next step in TV and even movie production. To me, it was a reasonable branch of the new (8K) camera discussion.

Harry Lime said:
There are only so many movies shot per year with a big enough budget to support digital 65mm. I'm not just talking about the rental cost. The whole infrastructure and pipeline of a 65mm production is a lot more resource intensive aka expensive than shooting 2.8-4k.

If there is a serious shortage and Arri can depend on bodies being booked long enough to make a return on their investment they will make more bodies. They have nothing to gain form starving the market.
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How many high tier productions are using Alexa and Amira now? Tons and tons? The same people, beginning with the top of the line budgets, can also use Alexa65. As to workflow, Fincher's "Gone Girl" was done on Red in 5K and the workflow was more than reasonable two years ago. (the shooting began in September, 2013)
 
DLD said:
IMO, automated camera arms controlled by joystick is the next step in TV and even movie production. To me, it was a reasonable branch of the new (8K) camera discussion.
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I definitely see automated rigs becoming more widespread - I myself am working on automating my slider with custom software & hardware - but it's an extra hassle. It works well in news studios because you have a limited number of fixed positions saved in memory, and a single operator can handle several cameras for that environment - representing a long term cost savings. For dramatic and narrative work though, motion is far less predictable - and changes for every scene. And actors don't always hit the same marks - so doing dramatic multi-cam and not having operators and assistants for each camera is self-defeating. And the moment you are back to having ops and assistants for every camera, you don't need the robotics. Even more so for field or on location work - where setting up and tearing down the robotics cuts into the schedule.
 
My head hurts with all the off topic in this thread. Nicer if it stayed on topic without false prophets and psychics and people trying to compare cheap BMD camera with Alexa.
 
DLD said:
How many high tier productions are using Alexa and Amira now? Tons and tons? The same people, beginning with the top of the line budgets, can also use Alexa65. As to workflow, Fincher's "Gone Girl" was done on Red in 5K and the workflow was more than reasonable two years ago. (the shooting began in September, 2013)
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Gone Girl was shot 5k compressed, either 3:1 or 5:1. There is no RED camera that can shoot uncompressed RAW, it's essentially wavelet compressed Cineform.

The Arri 65 shoots 6k uncompressed ArriRAW. That's a much bigger data footprint.
 
Indeed. A7RII, tweaked for its higher end use, is likely to go into the F5 replacement and that will likely use only the s35 crop for oversampled (15 MPX) 4K but with a faster readout to eliminate the rolling shutter effect, etc.

The F65 replacement will - let's put the odds better than 75% - be based on the medium format 50 MPX sensor that's in currently inside Pentax 645Z and several Hasselblad pieces. That will enable Sony to compete with Alexa65 for the "king of whole world" title and presumably ship more units than 28 that Alexa has manufactured so far.

The F65 sensor will then migrate down to F55, which will basically be F65 in the F55 body, with some modifications, as the technology has not stood still in the last three years since the F5/55/65 line introduction.
 
I am not sure it is a simple case of moving a sensor from one camera to another, slapping some electronics and going "hey this is a movie camera now" - I think there is a huge amount going on that I am the first to claim I do not understand.

You also have to remember Sony semiconductor and Sony cameras are two different companies, and they don't really communicate. Odd, but that's how it is.

You are right - technology has not stood still since the F65's introduction but last time I checked it was the only camera out there capable of producing something approaching a "genuine" 4K, with a global shutter. I think a lot of people would much rather see natively global shutters on the next batch of cameras than more pixels.
 
"Tweaking" is, obviously, a gross simplification of my part. It's more like a common die on top of the mix of the technologies that have been in use across the entire Sony (and their client) lineup. To what extent or level of success that mixing can be executed will only bee seen upon the products official release.

However, it's pretty obvious that 8K is the next step. For those on a tighter budget, I assume F65II (or F67 ... or something) will have a 6K-into-4K oversampling (or maybe 6.5K for 2.39 ratio).

As to the global shutter dilemma, a faster readout can serve as a reasonable facsimile thereof. Plus, there are various corrections that can be made, both in-body and in post.
 
All,
While we generally do not comment on future technology, we can say this rumor is false.
Our commitment to the CineAlta F-series platform is solid, with new updates and announcements coming in the near future.
Regards
Peter, SONY


it's official, no 8K CineAlta soon, lets go home to our families.

It's refreshing that Sony actually stated a rumor to be FALSE. Would love they do it more often.
 
The main issue that bugs me is the fact that since we moved from three-chip to single-chip cameras, we need to educate people about the differences between sensor resolution and display resolution. Unfortunately, it seems to require a little more common sense than most people are willing to apply.

I am all for 8K sensors, but only in terms of producing a pristine 4K picture. The current F65 already oversamples 6K into 4K. If Sony do release a genuine 8K camera I will be interested to see how they treat the F65 - they might have to do some "reverse marketing" and try and educate people about the BS they were fed with the F65's current sensor. It's brilliant, but it isn't "8K". I know why they did it, but I don't think it is fitting. Can't blame them though.
 
Well, if one splits hairs, Sony stated that "this rumor is false". And "this rumor" was about the "F65 with the A7RII sensor" as much as about the 8K enabled F65. It's sort of like, "We hear Porsche will make only turbocharged 911's with a 380 HP minimum power". Then Porsche denies the rumor. Subsequently, they release their 911 lineup with only turbos but the minimum is 400 HP rather than 380. Technically, they are in the clear. In substance, the rumor was correct. In substance, Sony will have an 8K camera. It may be a F65 replacement or it may be something above it - let's say F95. Mind you, we're talking about the first generation of the 8K cameras only. Within three years, one should be able to purchase an 8K camera for under $1,000. The technical ability to place the required count of pixels already exists. To wit, the 250 MPX Canon APS-H prototype. The readout is almost there too on Samsung NX1. Now, up the processing power a bit, add faster media and one might see these 8K cams appear sooner rather than later.

PS. Two more points. This generation of URSA Mini/Heavy has a switchable rolling/global shutter sensor. The penalty for GS is the negative two stops (?) but it's also a fairly affordable $5,000 4.6K camera.

Canon's 8K "proof of concept" prototype that was shown at the Canon Expo last week had four Odyssey Q7+ units hooked up to it. Each was obviously recording 1/4th of the entire frame, making it 4KX448K. Once released within two-three years, this setup isn't likely to be repeated. It's just that there are no mass produced external 8K recorders on the market yet (that I know of). However, the rolling shutter on a 4K portion of the 8K sensor could be very marginal, especially after the full image is stitched together in post.
 
I just can't help but think we've become caught up in some megapixel one-up-man-ship where the sole factor has now become how many pixels can we squeeze onto a chip (as far as some people are concerned).

I suppose this is RED's legacy in some ways. It will be interesting to see what happens, I would have much rather seen Canon focus on improving their 4K sensors and things, with stuff like the C300 Mk2, than this 8K tech. But the Japanese move in mysterious ways...
 
JMtheDP said:
I just can't help but think we've become caught up in some megapixel one-up-man-ship where the sole factor has now become how many pixels can we squeeze onto a chip (as far as some people are concerned)...
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We had a little fun debate on the Sony and Canon news over the last week or so. And that was --- if one prorates the new Sony Xperia 23 MPX 1/2.3 sensor onto a full frame format, he'd get a ~ 680 MPX sensor. In the medium format, it'd be ~ 1,150 MPX (i.e., over one billion pixels on the sensor the size of Pentax 645Z, that is made by Sony). And that's what available right now. In that regard, a 50 MPX 8K sensor falls far short of the pixel maximization.

As a side note, Whitney Houston is going on tour soon. Or, at least, her image is. And this looks like what's coming after the 8K craze becomes old news.

https://www.yahoo.com/music/whitney-houston-hologram-to-debut-next-year-via-128869668316.html
 
I have not seen anything out of that sensor Xperia but I get a feeling the picture from a 24mp phone sensor would be massively inferior to a 12mp DSLR sensor.
 
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