C200: Some good C200 footage appearing now!

I'm liking what I see from a technical standpoint, I mean check out the latitude here with the sun and how much detail it holds shooting straight into the sun. But from an aesthetic standpoint, still just available light run & gun, which is cool, but I feel the camera is capable of so much more with the right team behind the lens. Hopefully we will see some A-list DP with full crew stuff soon that shows what it can do with real lighting, production design, wardrobe, etc. I used the C200 yesterday to shoot an interview with an A-List music producer, dark black skin, black clothing, hat and big reflective sunglasses and it looks really nice, I was able to hold the white headphones and detail in his really dark skin nicely, with no blowing out the whites and highlights. But NDA won't allow me to post it and it is green screen, so it's not going to look like anything until we shoot plates and the BGs get composited. I think the really good stuff will come, it's just going to take some time. I'm shooting some dance stuff in a couple of weeks, but it will be the same challenge, I won't able to post any caps because of NDA. But I will definitely report back how the camera behaves, this will be a choreographer for a show and some of the talent from the show and we are on a set from the show.

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Yes, great images — and zero surprises.

For all we know this was shot Long GOP... but I'm at a point where if people don't understand that they can create essentially any image if you know what you're doing shooting 12bit Canon Log[SUP]2[/SUP], then nothing I or anyone else say will make a difference. So I guess I've pretty much stopped saying much around these here parts of the internet.

Starting with the 5DmkII there were a few really exciting years where things were turned on their head in a steady pace. Early cameras had lots of potential and lots of shortcomings. Same with the new generation of filmmakers. The cameras got better and better to the point where, and I feel this really started as early as the original C100, they couldn't be blamed anymore. I don't feel I can say the same about all the new filmmaker's shortcomings. Maybe it's just that the internet is overwhelmingly a place for emerging talent. But for every great star, there are 500 who don't quite get it. Any camera's images can be made to suffer if the vision is lacking when shooting or developing.

Too much faith has been put in equipment after a period of a few years where the "next new model" actually COULD make a difference since important winnings were realised for each passing generation.

But the underlying foundation behind images like the ones we see here is 100% the sensibilities of the filmmaker and not the camera: a basic grasp of contrast, saturation and light distribution.
 
Footage looks great! Love the colours! Awesome work from Peter McKinnon & Matti Haapoja.

Now that we see more and more footage, I dont want to question my deposit for the EVA1.

Battle of the sub 10K cams will be exciting. We have great options!
 
AndreeOnline said:
But the underlying foundation behind images like the ones we see here is 100% the sensibilities of the filmmaker and not the camera: a basic grasp of contrast, saturation and light distribution.
Click to expand...


Well said. The amount of **** footage I have seen by people who just bought this camera, simply by searching recently uploaded and "canon c200" on youtube and vimeo, is staggering. But none of that is the fault of the camera. The Red Raven suffers from a similar effect. A professional cine camera at an affordable price, gets folks that have no idea about the basics flocking toward it, in hopes of hitting record and having it look like a masterpiece. I am seeing videos with incorrect shutter speeds, out of focus subjects, blown out highlights, handheld shaky video, etc. I even saw one shitty (sorry for lack of a better word) video where a gentleman posted a commercial he shot in 60 frames for second on the c200, with horrible grading and his subject was out of focus. But thats not the worst part, the worst part is that his youtube page consists of instructional videos where he teaches about filmmaking basics and workflows. Its an amazing time and a really scare time to be a filmmaker/videographer.

I know I am getting off topic here, but I have to get this off my chest...if you want to post your crappy test videos of your 7k+ cine camera, fine. But don't sit there and try and to act like you know filmmaking basics by teaching it on youtube if your videos look like ****. Wolfcrow, a popular youtuber is another one. Dude sits there and waxes poetic on which camera to buy and wants to act like he knows everything about filmmaking, but every video he posts looks like absolute dog ****. Rant over.
 
AndreeOnline said:
Yes, great images — and zero surprises.

For all we know this was shot Long GOP... but I'm at a point where if people don't understand that they can create essentially any image if you know what you're doing shooting 12bit Canon Log[SUP]2[/SUP], then nothing I or anyone else say will make a difference. So I guess I've pretty much stopped saying much around these here parts of the internet.

Starting with the 5DmkII there were a few really exciting years where things were turned on their head in a steady pace. Early cameras had lots of potential and lots of shortcomings. Same with the new generation of filmmakers. The cameras got better and better to the point where, and I feel this really started as early as the original C100, they couldn't be blamed anymore. I don't feel I can say the same about all the new filmmaker's shortcomings. Maybe it's just that the internet is overwhelmingly a place for emerging talent. But for every great star, there are 500 who don't quite get it. Any camera's images can be made to suffer if the vision is lacking when shooting or developing.

Too much faith has been put in equipment after a period of a few years where the "next new model" actually COULD make a difference since important winnings were realised for each passing generation.

But the underlying foundation behind images like the ones we see here is 100% the sensibilities of the filmmaker and not the camera: a basic grasp of contrast, saturation and light distribution.
Click to expand...

Well said and 100% agreed.
 
Retrospective said:
Footage looks great! Love the colours! Awesome work from Peter McKinnon & Matti Haapoja.

Now that we see more and more footage, I dont want to question my deposit for the EVA1.

Battle of the sub 10K cams will be exciting. We have great options!
Click to expand...

Haha the preorder phase is the time to second guess your decision, not the post-order phase.

Having said that I have no doubt he EVA1 will be something you can create great images with, just as the C200 already is. It's just a matter of which camera gets you to where you want to be fastest and easiest.
 
Fahnon said:
Haha the preorder phase is the time to second guess your decision, not the post-order phase.

Having said that I have no doubt he EVA1 will be something you can create great images with, just as the C200 already is. It's just a matter of which camera gets you to where you want to be fastest and easiest.
Click to expand...
Haha I know! Honestly, either camera would have suited my needs. Its just which is the most practical for me.

Either way, can't wait to see a shootout between these 2 cameras.
 
Crevice said:
Well said. The amount of **** footage I have seen by people who just bought this camera, simply by searching recently uploaded and "canon c200" on youtube and vimeo, is staggering. But none of that is the fault of the camera. The Red Raven suffers from a similar effect. A professional cine camera at an affordable price, gets folks that have no idea about the basics flocking toward it, in hopes of hitting record and having it look like a masterpiece. I am seeing videos with incorrect shutter speeds, out of focus subjects, blown out highlights, handheld shaky video, etc. I even saw one shitty (sorry for lack of a better word) video where a gentleman posted a commercial he shot in 60 frames for second on the c200, with horrible grading and his subject was out of focus. But thats not the worst part, the worst part is that his youtube page consists of instructional videos where he teaches about filmmaking basics and workflows. Its an amazing time and a really scare time to be a filmmaker/videographer.

I know I am getting off topic here, but I have to get this off my chest...if you want to post your crappy test videos of your 7k+ cine camera, fine. But don't sit there and try and to act like you know filmmaking basics by teaching it on youtube if your videos look like ****. Wolfcrow, a popular youtuber is another one. Dude sits there and waxes poetic on which camera to buy and wants to act like he knows everything about filmmaking, but every video he posts looks like absolute dog ****. Rant over.
Click to expand...

Well it is not just about filmmaking but everybody is trying to proclaim himself/herself as expert. With the youtube and google following the hits model, people want just number of hits so that they can make more money. People generally want to learn everything on the net for free, without paying for it. So the internet is flooded with videos on every subject. And interestingly, now the Corporates (Canon included) are chasing youtubers for product reviews. So this trend is likely to stay.
 
I have some strong thoughts on the film maker vs equipment but before that, I think this short shows exactly how no camera can be put in a box. The C200 and the Panasonic EV1 are billed as "cinema" cameras yet we see small crew run and gun examples from the EOS website. Not really a cinema set imho. I think this is showing a little mistake by the Panasonic crew by not offering a viewfinder and any AF. An $8,000 camera is not going to be the choice for large scale movies and commercials so it will be used for smaller crew jobs. I would never want to shoot a job outside like the short listed without a viewfinder to trust exposure choices. Yes you can buy a viewfinder but then the Panasonic camera is not at the same pricepoint.

About equipment: I hear you Andree but I feel like I have been fighting cameras ever since I started working with them. Especially dynamic range. Always needing to massage RAW still images or knowing the camera will not be able pull a shot off due to its limitations. So when I hear of a more limiting situation like a low information codec choice it makes me mad. We already have to coax images out of cameras and as data handling capabilities have increased we are supposed to happy with throwing away information just because?

I would wager that this little short was filmed in RAW but I would like to see the same material shot and graded in the 8bit 4:2:0. Granted if one is viewing in 1080p the 4k will help no matter what. I think higher bit depths give a subtle refinement like great lighting gives modeling. No doubt this is a nice camera/sensor and will be a great tool.
 
Bassman2003 said:
I have some strong thoughts on the film maker vs equipment but before that, I think this short shows exactly how no camera can be put in a box. The C200 and the Panasonic EV1 are billed as "cinema" cameras yet we see small crew run and gun examples from the EOS website. Not really a cinema set imho. I think this is showing a little mistake by the Panasonic crew by not offering a viewfinder and any AF. An $8,000 camera is not going to be the choice for large scale movies and commercials so it will be used for smaller crew jobs. I would never want to shoot a job outside like the short listed without a viewfinder to trust exposure choices. Yes you can buy a viewfinder but then the Panasonic camera is not at the same pricepoint.

About equipment: I hear you Andree but I feel like I have been fighting cameras ever since I started working with them. Especially dynamic range. Always needing to massage RAW still images or knowing the camera will not be able pull a shot off due to its limitations. So when I hear of a more limiting situation like a low information codec choice it makes me mad. We already have to coax images out of cameras and as data handling capabilities have increased we are supposed to happy with throwing away information just because?

I would wager that this little short was filmed in RAW but I would like to see the same material shot and graded in the 8bit 4:2:0. Granted if one is viewing in 1080p the 4k will help no matter what. I think higher bit depths give a subtle refinement like great lighting gives modeling. No doubt this is a nice camera/sensor and will be a great tool.
Click to expand...


It is filmed mostly in raw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWB1lFm6ZqA all the info is in his review here.

Regarding cameras, you only fight with the cheaper variety to get an expensive image out of them, I'm afraid today, the person behind the camera makes a big difference, yes, I agree, but as in the RED promos " the camera helps..." and it helps a lot if you have 8K res with high frame rates in raw.

Even waving an Alexa Mini around with exposure in the ballpark will yield beautiful results from most cameramen, good or bad, experienced or not so experienced. This is the world we live in TODAY.

No one is an expert in this profession anymore, I have been in the game since the late 90's and I still have to re-learn every year, whether it's gimbals vs raw light vs led light setups etc the list goes on!

The video above is just a vehicle for a camera review, thats all, it's much better to see this than someones cat in a kitchen or endlesss trees or cows or whatever.

Define what cinema is today, not back in the 80's, today it really doesn't matter how a film or video is made, whether they choose to use some crappy monitor or a wooden tripod, the proof is in the pudding when the viewer sees it and it is measured by likes on a webpage.
 
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cane141 said:
It is filmed mostly in raw:

Regarding cameras, you only fight with the cheaper variety to get an expensive image out of them, I'm afraid today the person behind the camera makes a big difference, yes, I agree, but as in the RED promos " the camera helps..." and it helps a lot if you have 8K res with high frame rates in raw.

Even waving an Alexa Mini around with exposure in the ballpark will yield beautiful results from most cameramen, good or bad, experienced or not so experienced. This is the world we live in TODAY.
Click to expand...

The somewhat infamous Zacuto shootout demonstrated that with the right crew and conditions you could get a great image out of almost any camera. Call me greedy but I want a camera that still has a great chance of giving me a beautiful image when things go wrong.

I remember seeing Juan Salvo's video linked below where he "fully recovered" "severely over exposed" RAW F55 footage. It's four years later and if I can get a similar capability with the C200 or the EVA1 I am in! Things are going to go wrong and hopefully we will learn from the mistakes. With the right camera you just might have the luxury of still being able to get the shot.


https://vimeo.com/64696756
 
Gary T said:
The somewhat infamous Zacuto shootout demonstrated that with the right crew and conditions you could get a great image out of almost any camera. Call me greedy but I want a camera that still has a great chance of giving me a beautiful image when things go wrong.

I remember seeing Juan Salvo's video linked below where he "fully recovered" "severely over exposed" RAW F55 footage. It's four years later and if I can get a similar capability with the C200 or the EVA1 I am in! Things are going to go wrong and hopefully we will learn from the mistakes. With the right camera you just might have the luxury of still being able to get the shot.


https://vimeo.com/64696756
Click to expand...


Even four years, a lot has changed.

But I agree, the red raw workflow enabled problems to be fixed much easier in post.

This is what we pay premium for and today it's still the same. This year 4K, next prob 5 or 6 and so it goes...
 
mikepanganiban said:
Just wondering if it's pretty comparable image-wise.
Click to expand...

Nope.

But the C200 is a much better value if you don't need what RED offers overall (specific camera specs/features and credibility from certain potential employers).

Plenty of people will make a living with their C200 and won't need anything else...really just depends on your own career/goals/thoughts.
 
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