So there's no AF100 Successor - Now what?

Mac -
will be very interested in your first production footage from the LS-300...
especially high DR shots....this is the area that concerns me the most...
I have seen a small amount of footage that looked pretty organic....but
their always seemed to be a sequence or two with strange coloration in highlight
areas. Don't know if footage was worked in post or not....but I think you have said you are trying to avoid post production work as much as possible....

Thanks !

Tye
 
CineStill said:
Hi Mac

Cameras like JVC LS300 and Sony A7 series if I understand correctly only out put 8 bit and then there is the hassle of an external recorder and external EVF
Sony FS5 & FS7, if I understand correctly would need an external recorder to capture 10 bit footage, so again an extra cost and hassle.
Click to expand...

Incorrect. The FS7 records 10 bit internally in both 4K and HD. The FS5 records 10 bit internally in HD.
 
Tye said:
will be very interested in your first production footage from the LS-300...
especially high DR shots....this is the area that concerns me the most...
I have seen a small amount of footage that looked pretty organic....but
their always seemed to be a sequence or two with strange coloration in highlight
areas.
Click to expand...
Here's a link to downloadable JVC LS300 J-Log1 sample footage, shot at EV+0, EV+1/3, EV+2/3 to show how the camera handles overexposed highlights. The clips were recorded internally in 1080p30 at 50Mbps 4:2:2 8-bit color depth, graded with a custom LUT, and sharpened with Neat Video set to zero noise reduction. The original unedited MOV clips may also be downloaded from my Vimeo page.


Here are links to the original three unedited MOV clips:

https://vimeo.com/141962245

https://vimeo.com/141962247

https://vimeo.com/141962246

With the J-Log1, histogram, spot meter, and digital zoom upgrades, the LS300 has become virtually everything I wanted to see in a successor to the AF100. The only significant AF100 feature lacking in the LS300 is a built-in waveform monitor, but the histogram is an adequate substitute for gauging J-Log1 exposure. The only other issue I have is with the image quality of the built-in LCD and viewfinder, but functionally, they're more than adequate.

Panasonic recently released a V-Log-L upgrade for the GH4, a $99 PR debacle which exposed serious image quality issues when recording V-Log-L footage internally in 8-bit 4:2:0 color depth. So far, JVC's free J-Log1 upgrade has performed flawlessly in my tests, with no perceptible trace of the chroma smearing artifacts seen in numerous examples of GH4 internal H.264 recordings. Technically, both these cameras produce 12 stops of DR in log mode, but I'd estimate the usable 8-bit DR range as around 10 stops, though LS300 internal recordings make use of the full 100 IRE H.264 encoding range, compared to the GH4's range limit of 79 IRE. For broadcast quality HD footage, the LS300's 50Mbps 8-bit 4:2:2 H.264 encoding really does make a perceptible difference in image quality, and its V-Log-L implementation is as straightforward and foolproof as it gets. If you want more DR than this camera delivers, you will need a 10-bit or better recorder and a significantly larger budget.
 
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Lpowell - thanks for that comprehensive feedback. As one who feels like the lone ranger wandering in the wilderness, it's good to see others with open minds - and since you're obviously a Panasonic guy, that adds some credibility.

Tye, above (with the Charley Chan avatar - a much misunderstood literary character), asked that I provide "production" footage - nothing I will shoot next week will be any different from the stills I've already posted above, that's how I shoot, un-produced. But the above from Lowell should give you some indication.
 
Lpowell said:
With the J-Log1, histogram, spot meter, and digital zoom upgrades, the LS300 has become virtually everything I wanted to see in a successor to the AF100. The only significant AF100 feature lacking in the LS300 is a built-in waveform monitor, but the histogram is an adequate substitute for gauging J-Log1 exposure. The only other issue I have is with the image quality of the built-in LCD and viewfinder, but functionally, they're more than adequate.
Click to expand...

Thanks so much for all your updates, Lpowell. How would you say the built-in LCD and viewfinder measure up compared to those on the AF100? I've never loved the ones on the AF100, but get by with them 80% of the time - especially run & gun work (for interviews and other setups where there is the time, I'll use a small HD). Some of the comments I've read about the LS300 displays have me worried they may be even worse than the AF100.
 
Dave: I'll jump in here. The LCD and EVF are similar, if memory serves, to the AF (it's been a long while since I actually used them - I always used a Z-Finder with the AF). I CAN say that they are virtually identical to those on the Canon XF100, if you're familiar with that camera. Not that good. But in a pinch you can use them - I shot a 20 minute doc with the Canon - but of course the XF100s sensor is smaller.

I've been using external EVFs since HDMI out has been possible, some prefer small monitors like the SmallHD - Either way your life will be easier. The good thing is they can travel with you from camera to camera... Although I have a Gratical now on the LS300, I still use my Z-Finders on my Pocket Cameras - and take one as a backup in case the Gratical craps out. And if it holds up, the Gratical could be the last EVF I ever have to buy.

One comment - The LS300 has the best Focus Assist I've ever used. It's assigned to a User button and, when turned on, changes the finder to B&W but keeps peaking in color, blue is the default and it's great. Unfortunately this feature does not output via the HDMI or SDI - But it does make the LCD very useable for focusing (I used it a lot on a shoot in a bar last night - camera in my lap with the Nokton 17.5).

If JVC pays any attention to these forums (which is unlikely given this is a Panasonic thread) , please provide a firmware upgrade that outputs focus assist.

I should add that the Z-Finder Pros are on sale now at Zacuto for a great price. They're not as good as the Gratical, but they're way better the the built-in EVF on every camera I've ever used.
 
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quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by DC
. . . I did speak with a Panny rep about an "AF200" (a true AF100 successor), and the response I got is pretty much that the company does not - at this time - plan to enter an already crowded interchangeable lens camera market . . .

dregenthal said:
This is another one of those statements that has "the milk shooting out my nose."
I can't help but wonder if this rep even knows that Panasonic is already in this market?
They (Panasonic) are the ones that developed and cultivated the removable lens market!
Click to expand...

Sorry, that didn't translate well. What I meant was, Panasonic has no plans to continue in this crowded market with another interchangeable lens camera in the vein/price of an AF100. So negatory on an "AF200" - for now.
 
DC said:
... Sorry, that didn't translate well. What I meant was, Panasonic has no plans to continue in this crowded market with another interchangeable lens camera in the vein/price of an AF100. So negatory on an "AF200" - for now.
Click to expand...
There are still options for them. They could include some sort of a compressed Raw in GH5. That would set a few heart afire.
 
I posted this in another forum, title "honeymoon over"

Okay, as you probably know, I have been rooting for the LS300 - it's the only camera that ticks a lot of boxes. Today was my first day on a funded job with the camera, a complex documentary on tourism and economics.

After only an hour, the remote port stopped working (I use the camera handheld, shoulder mounted with a Gratical EVF and a remote MOVCAM handgrip to start/stop) which meant I had to fumble around for the start/stop button on the handle, and, as a result, missed some important content. I finished the day with my C100 which, luckily, I had in the Jeep as a backup.

I had ordered an LS300 in April from B&H and it was defective when it arrived (stuck on 6400 ISO), so I returned it for a refund - good for B&H.

In August I ordered another LS300 from B&H and it was also defective (the diopter on the EVF was not not adjustable). This time I asked for an exchange and received the camera I have today. Now THIS camera is also defective. I'm a pretty patient man, but this is beyond belief.

A message to JVC Pro - "Pro" means this is how I make my living!

Am I the only one who's having these problems?
 
Hmm. I thought JVC had a reputation for dodgy QC all along - when you think "quality", JVC doesn't spring to mind. But then again, quite a few posters here bought the LS300 and so far we have not heard about massive defects... maybe you're just unlucky? Of course, 3 defective cameras in a row is a bit much - I'd have blown a gasket after the second one.
 
I had a play with an LS300 and I must say, the features are fantastic but the build quality feels very cheap. The LCD feels low quality and flimsy, the EVF is pretty awful. Having said that, the features are pretty amazing and I'm very looking forward to seeing some 'well shot' JLOG footage. Seems to be a dearth of nicely shot material.
 
For most people (probably) the remote port not working would be a non-issue - for me the LCD and EVF are non--issues since I only use the LCD, and that just for the menu. But whatever the personal preferences may be, in this day and age there is just too much competition to turn out poorly made and monitored "professional" equipment.

I didn't buy the LS300 because it was cheap - I would have gladly paid more, because it has all the features I wanted, and some I'd never even thought of. Now I don't think I can get along without the Prime Zoom and VSM.

The LS300 is a potentially fantastic camera, in my opinion better than anything else in the sub-5 grand price range, and even most above that - if the damn thing only worked.

I'm pretty much stuck with this one, but am gun shy and will finish my current project with some C100, but mostly the Pocket Cameras (I really need 4.2.2. because this is for broadcast). So it's back to a bag full of batteries and NDs with IR cut filters and Xume adapters on every lens - and the constant fear of moire.
 
Mac said:
Dave: I'll jump in here. The LCD and EVF are similar, if memory serves, to the AF (it's been a long while since I actually used them - I always used a Z-Finder with the AF). I CAN say that they are virtually identical to those on the Canon XF100, if you're familiar with that camera. Not that good. But in a pinch you can use them - I shot a 20 minute doc with the Canon - but of course the XF100s sensor is smaller.

I've been using external EVFs since HDMI out has been possible, some prefer small monitors like the SmallHD - Either way your life will be easier. The good thing is they can travel with you from camera to camera... Although I have a Gratical now on the LS300, I still use my Z-Finders on my Pocket Cameras - and take one as a backup in case the Gratical craps out. And if it holds up, the Gratical could be the last EVF I ever have to buy.

One comment - The LS300 has the best Focus Assist I've ever used. It's assigned to a User button and, when turned on, changes the finder to B&W but keeps peaking in color, blue is the default and it's great. Unfortunately this feature does not output via the HDMI or SDI - But it does make the LCD very useable for focusing (I used it a lot on a shoot in a bar last night - camera in my lap with the Nokton 17.5).

If JVC pays any attention to these forums (which is unlikely given this is a Panasonic thread) , please provide a firmware upgrade that outputs focus assist.

I should add that the Z-Finder Pros are on sale now at Zacuto for a great price. They're not as good as the Gratical, but they're way better the the built-in EVF on every camera I've ever used.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Mac. Sounds like I could probably get by with the built-in displays for most of my purposes. With good focus assist and now the histogram, those cover the really important stuff.
 
Mac said:
I posted this in another forum, title "honeymoon over"

Okay, as you probably know, I have been rooting for the LS300 - it's the only camera that ticks a lot of boxes. Today was my first day on a funded job with the camera, a complex documentary on tourism and economics.

After only an hour, the remote port stopped working (I use the camera handheld, shoulder mounted with a Gratical EVF and a remote MOVCAM handgrip to start/stop) which meant I had to fumble around for the start/stop button on the handle, and, as a result, missed some important content. I finished the day with my C100 which, luckily, I had in the Jeep as a backup.

I had ordered an LS300 in April from B&H and it was defective when it arrived (stuck on 6400 ISO), so I returned it for a refund - good for B&H.

In August I ordered another LS300 from B&H and it was also defective (the diopter on the EVF was not not adjustable). This time I asked for an exchange and received the camera I have today. Now THIS camera is also defective. I'm a pretty patient man, but this is beyond belief.

A message to JVC Pro - "Pro" means this is how I make my living!

Am I the only one who's having these problems?
Click to expand...

This is really disconcerting. It seems for every awesome benefit the LS300 offers, there's an equal liability. As frustrating as it is reading about them, I can only imagine how frustrating it is to you and others who are actually trying to use the camera in professional situations.

I have owned the old DV500, and the HD100 - and had similar experiences... they were innovative (even ground-breaking) tools capable of producing awesome content, but both failed me at critical times. I've been all Panasonic since the HD100 because of those issues. I so badly wanted the LS300 to buck that trend.

I have used my AF100 under all sorts of conditions, 3-6 days/week for 3 1/2 years and the only issue I've ever experienced is an occasional "incompatible battery" warning that goes away after pulling the battery and re-seating it. Its performance has been absolutely rock solid - and that's why I continue to use it with confidence despite the fact I know I could get better image quality elsewhere at this point.

I sooooo want to buy and love the LS300 though because I own a ton of m43 glass and now see the images it is capable of producing... but I'm totally with you Mac, it's incredibly frustrating that JVC might have put a little more quality into the construction but obviously didn't. I would gladly pay more for this camera if they had. If I had a complement of lenses that could be used with the Sony FS5, I would gladly shell out $5600 for that.

The quality issues that you're bringing up pretty much make the current LS300 a non-starter for me. What good are all the great features and excellent image quality if you cannot trust that the camera will function properly when you make your living using it? I'll keep hoping an LS300 "mark II" might address some of these concerns... but I guess I won't hold my breath waiting.
 
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For those who are interested - I've been going through and cataloguing my footage today. I am actually pretty amazed at how much better the LS300 is than the C100. It looks, given the same setting, that it has about 3-4 more stops dynamic range, much more detail in the highlights, and in general has a really pleasing look compared to the Canon. The C100 custom profile is one I set up two years ago, based on the WDR gamma. The JVC is J-Log1. I can't post pictures or footage because of the nature of this project, but take my word for it, the JVC beats the crap out of my (admittedly 2+ year old) Canon C100. Maybe the MKII is significantly better, but I doubt it from what I've seen, and it's still 4.2.0.

And BTW, the C100 blew the doors off my AF100 when I first bought it...

I'm going to practice all day today (Sunday, my day of restful football) starting and stopping the LS300 with the top handle switch. I used to do similar with my Eclair NPR in the far distant past, so it's no big deal. My only fear is that something else on the 300 will f__k up!

Another unheard message to JVC - You've got an excellent picture-taking box here guys, get your act together!

I forgot to add, the audio section on the JVC is a little better than the Canon's too, same mic (Rode NTG-3), identical settings, crisper response.
 
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Gary: That's good to hear - I obviously will be keeping mine - and using it a lot once I work through these issues. I shot a bunch of B roll today at the wharf where I live, handheld, practicing using the handle button... It ain't easy because it's easy to hit it with the palm of your hand when you're carrying it and you can get out of phase (not recording when you think you are) if you aren't really careful. I might try to design something to prevent it. I wish the remote port worked! Hopefully I'll hear back from JVC tomorrow.

I've never been unlucky in my camera or car purchases, I guess there's a first time for everyone...
 
Here's a link to several graded skintone complexion tests of the LS300's J-Log1 profile, recorded internally at 50Mbps in 1080p30 at ISO 400 in 8-bit 4:2:2 color depth. Panning across detailed background foliage tests the H.264 encoder's ability to maintain high quality skintone contours at high bitrates. Sunlit highlights were intentionally blown out to reveal any highlight coloration. I used a custom LUT to produce a naturalistic look, and sharpened the clips with Neat Video set to zero noise reduction. The LS300 does not allow user adjustment of sharpness when the J-Log1 profile is selected, which to my eyes makes sharpening mandatory in post.

 
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