Similarities of HMC150 and HDC-TM700

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pwelander

Active member
I'm in the process of working on some upgrades from my tried-and-true DVX100Bs and FCE4 setup. I recently got an HDC-TM700 as a stop-gap to get away from tape-based capture for a big project, and it appears there are more than a few similarities between this and the HMC150. (Has anybody worked with both? Should I expect the same kind of workflow?) BTW, that TM700 is a very nice camera.

My efforts to use the MTS files from the TM700 with FCE have resulted in naught but tears, so my next step in the upgrade process will be to buy the current FCP suite. From what I am seeing, getting files from the 150 into FCP is no big deal. Should I assume a similar (identical?) workflow to get files from the TM700? Ultimately I'll work on getting a 150.

BTW, if somebody has a bullet-proof way to work with MTS files in FCE without doing horrible conversions, he or she should get the Nobel Prize.

Thanks.
 
Hmm, I'm going the opposite way on the same road - researching the TM700 as a downgrade from the magnificent HMC150. Sadly, times and circumstances change and I have more of a use for the smaller hardware.

I shoot a PAL HMC152 (50i and 25p) and FCE and have had no problems importing. Pop the card in the reader, fire up log and transfer and away it goes to do its thing. One-step process.

I hear the problems with the TM700 arise because of 1080/60P (not 100% AVCHD compliant) and 24P, which is not supported in FCE. While I haven't had an opportunity to find out personally, I hear that 60i imports OK, and VoltaicHD will take care of the 60P (convert to 30P).

How are you finding the TM700?
 
The TM700 and HMC150 both use AVCHD, so the same log & transfer process should apply. However, the TM700 has an additional recording format, for when it's in 1080/60p mode. I don't know how the NLE will deal with those files. They're not AVCHD files.

If you want seamless integration without "doing horrible conversions", you'll have to buy different software. Any other NLE will allow direct playing of the files (except perhaps Avid); for the Apple-branded NLEs you can use ClipWrap to quickly convert .MTS files into .MOV files for direct importing, without any conversion to the underlying footage. However, you may find the editing of native h.264 files to be cumbersome and slow until Apple integrates hardware-assisted h.264 playback.
 
I bought the TM700 because I was going on an assignment where I would have to shoot a lot of short videos and post them ASAP to YouTube. www.youtube.com/emersonegue1 All I would have to work with was a Celeron PC laptop with no firewire connection, so the DVX100B was out. The only editing platform was a very low end version of Vegas. I did buy a Beachtek XLR adapter box so I could use real microphones and extra high-capacity batteries. I was impressed with the TM700 and found that its auto functions were able to deal with just about anything I encountered, including the Electrovoice RE50 and Rode M3s. I basically ran everything in default mode and it worked. Downloads into Vegas worked very well, although it couldn't display continuous video in the window thanks to the low-end processor. The camera's ability to focus, set exposure, and even record audio in automatic mode were very impressive. I like the camera, but I'll probably still go for a 150 one of these days.
 
For those who have both HMC150 and TM700, how much worse is the TM700 in light that you can shoot the HMC150 @ 0db but need the iris wide open? Any examples / comparisons?
 
So if the 1080/60p file format is different on the TM700, are the others still the same? The TM700 uses the HA, HG, HX, HE file designations, but there isn't much in the manual about what those actually mean. I see the same terminology related to the 150. So are the file characteristics of an HG clip shot on either camera the same?

Thanks.
 
pwelander said:
So if the 1080/60p file format is different on the TM700, are the others still the same? The TM700 uses the HA, HG, HX, HE file designations, but there isn't much in the manual about what those actually mean. I see the same terminology related to the 150. So are the file characteristics of an HG clip shot on either camera the same?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
All the H* formats are 1080i60 AVCHD. The HA, HG, HX, HE labels simply refer to the bit rate, maxing out at 17Mbps. The TM700 also can record 1080p24 and 1080p60 28Mbps, both in AVC. Truth be told, its really all the same digital format. The only difference is that the AVCHD standard only allows some of the bit rates and doesn't allow 1080p60.
 
If you shoot 1080p24 with the TM700, I'm pretty sure it records telecine 17Mbps AVCHD (not the 28Mbps AVC when shooting 1080p60).
 
So how does that reduced bit rate thing work? How would one see the difference between a low and high bit rate? Isn't the pixel count the same, or am I missing something.

Also, does the TM700 really do 1080p24? I can't find that in the instructions.

Thanx.
 
pwelander said:
So how does that reduced bit rate thing work?
Click to expand...

Not sure what you are asking.

pwelander said:
How would one see the difference between a low and high bit rate? Isn't the pixel count the same, or am I missing something.
Click to expand...

Not sure how to answer this. This is "lossy" compression video. Lower bitrate = lower quality image. Perhaps you might want to read up on image compression basics at wikipedia.com or something.

pwelander said:
Also, does the TM700 really do 1080p24? I can't find that in the instructions.
Click to expand...

See page 67. They call it "DIGITAL CINEMA" (the manual sort of seems written to confuse people I guess).
 
OK, I think I'm beginning to understand what "lossy" means in this context. The bit rate says, more or less, how much each frame can change as a clip advances. The number of pixels doesn't change (it's still 1080) but the number of them that can change frame to frame can vary. The rest get lossy-ed. Keeping that concept in mind gives another motivation for why steady camera support is a good idea. The more the background of a shot is static, the less stress there is on the parts that are moving.

I also found that reference to "digital cinema" in the TM700 manual. Why don't they just call it 24p?? Nobody would ever accuse Panasonic of getting carried away with helpful documentation. That's why we need guys like Barry Green. Something else to try with that camera.

The next step will be trying to upload MTS files directly into FCP. I have a shiny new copy of Final Cut Pro on its way. I can work on that over the weekend.
 
The TM700 does not shoot true 24p. It does have what is called "Digital Cinema", but this is some type of an interlaced hybrid, not 24p.
 
The 24p is true progressive video recorded in a 60i stream. You simply need to do reverse telecine in post Dan. Then you won't see what looks like interlace artifacts.
 
A lot of people who are dealing with TM700 files and have Final Cut have purchased ClipWrap. It either takes the videos out of the MTS wrapper so that Final Cut can read the 1080 60p files or it can convert directly to ProRess.
 
Converting the 700's raw files to h.264, which is a pure rewrap to h.264, produces files that play in the QT Pro player.

However, I would advise using those files in FCP, because h.264 is a delivery or acquisition codec. Convert to an editing codec such as pro res or pro res LT.
 
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