C100: Shoulder Rig ?

B

BeeHop

Well-known member
Hi guys, did a very long observational doco shoot today and after realised the need for a shoulder rig etc. The C100 held out in front for all day shooting is so tiring.

I'm after suggestions on what kind of rig you guys would recommend.

I was looking at the Zacuto C-Shooter. It appears its designed with a Z-Finder EVF Pro attached via HDMI. As i use a Ninja2 my HDMI port is already taken up.

Any thoughts recommendations?
 
You're using the HDMI for a Ninja, but for anyone else referencing this thread, it's worth noting that you lose the very useful and ergonomic built-in focus punch-in when using an outboard EVF - if you can make a Zacuto rig work with their C100 Z Finder clip-on loupe, that might be worth pursuing.

Personally, I'm getting on OK with the C100 Z Finder and a £20 Manfrotto shoulder brace: http://www.manfrotto.co.uk/shoulder-brace-for-monopod

It's made of rigid plastic and benefits from a small cable tie to stop it shortening when I'm really pushing it. I'm not being deliberately cheap, I just wanted something quick and lightweight, that wouldn't detract from the small form and ergonomics of the C100. Edelkrone have something new out too, along the same lines:

http://www.edelkrone.com/pocket-shot/

Possibly tougher, although it's also plastic - dunno. You'd have to unfold it and set it up each time too. The Manfrotto comes straight out of the case and screws on, no faffing, and has their usual attention to detail with a sprung pin for tightening the brass spigot.

Ben.
 
Joe Stas said:
You can still use an EVF when using a Ninja through it's HDMI out port, no?
Click to expand...

Yes, you can loop through - but you don't get the focus punch-in or WFM on the HDMI output, so you'd be restricted to pressing buttons on the EVF for focus and exposure aids, which might compromise ergonomics somewhat. You also wouldn't want a "dirty" feed going to your external recorder.

I'd also want to check the amount latency in the signal, if I was looping through that way.

Ben.
 
Thanks Ben.

I am hoping that the C Shooter will work with the Z Finder Pro as the C100's LCD flips out to the left of the camera, and with a slight head tilt it might work. (maybe someone could test?? )

So far I can't find another option, coz as you said you do lose the very useful and ergonomic built-in focus punch-in when using an outboard EVF - and i waould really want to keep these!

 
I've been debating which shoulder rig to buy for months - still not decided!

I think the Recoil with the Z-Drive and Tornado is a really good option, but sooo expensive once you start adding on the half cage and the Axis EVF mount.

The C-Shooter also looks great if you don't mind counter weights - I think it'd be too tight to put the standard Z-Finder on there though? Take a look at Erik's great review here

 
Alexander, can you give more information about the waist spring rod support you use under the C300? Where does this help in your shooting? Following moving subjects or overall balance?
 
BeeHop,

Look no further, study my rig photo. I do a lot of handheld and I need to go instantly from tripod to shoulder and found the Tilta Rig base was the best, modular, and a good value to customize. Figuring I needed a counterweight I did not want a useless weight so I have my Anton Bauer powering the whole thing. Knowing that sometimes I may need a Ninja or wireless receiver I wanted room on the back.

But the best thing is that I bought the Zacuto Relocator for about $300 so my right hand's thumb can do all the scrolling. My left hand grip is a custom handle made by Olof. So I pretty much consider this perfect except I may need focus wheels if I can figure out which brand will work with all my lenses. I bought a DP4 EVF so it acts as an onboard monitor if a client or director wants to see the shot. Once I know my focus while on sticks I have no need for the LCD screen.

I tend to leave the shotgun on so I don't pick up myself breathing. Sometimes I have an LED light on top, even though the C100 is good in low light there are times you need an eye light or something straight on. The cheeseplate was $30, bought an AB Gold Mount then a Quad D-Tap to power everything. In previous models I had configured a stomach support rod that fit near my belt buckle. I could literally make phone calls with two hands or sip coffee because everything was perfectly in balance. But I figure this is too expensive a package to take both hands off at the same time. I tend to shoot at many heights so detaching the rod quickly becomes an issue, but if you feel the job will be HOURS of handheld then it is very handy to have, I may configure a fast detaching one.

So in sum, if you start with a Tilta Rig baseplate you can modularize it the way you want as you get to learn more of what you need. The way I look at a shoulder rig is if I am in the middle of an IMPORTANT shot I know the editor really needs, I have to be able to take either hand and make an adjustment to either side of the camera, whether it's focus, exposure or zoom, without any noticeable bump. Now I am onto customizing a rain coat of some sort. Tilta is the least expensive solution yet has great build quality. That's my two cents. Good luck!
 

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Thanks nedcam,

I must say that looks like a beast :) Kinda defeats the purpose why I got the C100 which was to be as unobtrusive as possible.

Using the Anton Bauer as a weight great idea! Probabbly after purchasing the Tila Rig with Anton, Zacuto Relocator and DP4 EVF is would come in close to the C-Shooter?

I will seriously consider this option, but its just so hard over the internet without testing. So I really appreciate your input.:)
 
For those interested this was the feedback from Zacuto:

The C100 Z-Finder doesn’t work very well with a shoulder mounted rig because
of the position of the LCD on the C100. On the C-Shooter , you’d need to
push the camera so far forward to accommodate the Z-Finder that all the
weight of the camera would be on your arms, which is what a shoulder mounted
rig is supposed to alleviate. You’d also have to crane your head to the side
to be able to look into the Z-Finder, so it wouldn't be very comfortable.

The EVF does have loop through capability, so you can use it and still send
the HDMI signal to your Ninja 2 as well.
 
I would suggest going to the Ninja 2 first and then loop out to the viewfinder or monitor, which is what I have been doing successfully.

You can get a rig like Ned's or Zacuto's (C shooter or Recoil V2) to work with a EVF. I think a battery system for ballast is the only way to go since you have to power so many devices. I am using a AB plate with 3 D-taps so I can power the camera, Ninja 2 and an EVF or monitor. It is a big rig but when you are full up with a recorder and EVF, that's the only way it seems to work. Otherwise I go as simple as I can and record internally to AVCHD.
 
BeeHop you're lucky to be far away in Australia after calling my baby a "beast"! I will be in Perth for the holidays visiting my son and may hunt you down...

I have several educational clients and often have to tip toe into the back of a grade school classroom so I will strip down the camera to minimal. Also, I may need to skirt security or the cops as in getting on the El train without permits so it naturally won't be on my beastly rig. However, if it's a real gig I need the real estate to put on all the doo dads. Haven't used a Ninja2 yet but I know I have room at least. So if you look at the price of a C-Shooter and back out the cost of the $300 Relocator (which is a God Send for doc shooters) then you're really paying $650ish for that rig and it isn't even ready for a Ninja, radio receiver, etc. etc. Take away the Relocator: Does the C-Shooter look like it's worth $650? With a totally useless piece of weight on the back that you can buy at an exercise store? When I first started developing a shoulder rig years ago I could not believe that anyone would want a non-functioning piece of weight on their shoulder. That's when I got the idea of doing a Gold Mount. If I could improve it I would have that part of my rig go downwards at a 90 degree angle so the length is shorter. Sometimes I'm in the passenger seat filming a driver and I have to have the ass end of the rig sticking out the window.

As to the radio receiver BEC holder, clients appreciate that I put my radio(s) on people to get better audio. As to the shotgun I find that the built in mics pick up my handling noise. I have used the Zacuto EVF and tried the Alphatron in a showroom, that's why I decided on the DP4. I need it's size as an on camera monitor as well as an EVF.

I have always preferred to make things as customizable as possible. Not sure if your continent had the TV show McGyver but that is me! Lastly, on a corporate shoot, I put ever doo dad on the beast even if I'm not using it to have that Ooo-Ahhh factor of "the pro has arrived". It's a form of PR.

But whichever way you go I can't say enough about how useful the Relocator is.

Later,
 
nedcam said:
BeeHop you're lucky to be far away in Australia after calling my baby a "beast"! I will be in Perth for the holidays visiting my son and may hunt you down...
Click to expand...

Maybe its just me but if someone called my rig a "beast" I'd take it as a complement not a put down.
 
Ned's rig is pretty darn good. I can see it's a balanced rig. The tough part with these darn cameras is getting it over your shoulder and they are so small it's hard to get all the pieces to fit in that small space. The best lenses for a rig are the physically longer ones (24-105) because you have more room to work with. What I've learned.

The Zacuto Axis solves a few issues. It drops the EVF in from the top of your camera and makes it easy to get it in a perfect position and it's also very cool to use when the camera is on a tripod.

The new Z-Drive with the Tornado or even without solves the issue of the follow focus getting in the way of the EVF due to it's design.

The grip relocator is a must for both the C300 and C100. It's fricken awesome!

Now with all this I still prefer no rig or at least a FigRig if it works for the production, but if you have to run and gun ENG style what Ned has created can be duplicated with other bits because it makes sense to balance it out. The only gotcha for most is the Sony broadcast QR plate that you need to use the Tilta. I don't use them anymore and prefer the Arca Swiss QR style better.

I'm working on a review of a full Recoil system that will be available in a couple weeks.
 
Hahaha .. was definately meant as a compliment :) I call all awesome cameras and gear 'beasts' :)

As Erik says your rig looks nicley balanced and very strong! If u ever come to South of Australia let me know so I can play with your rig ;)

After having a play around I have found a 3 point contact will really help. So I will get the Zacuto Z-Finder and im seriously looking at the Zacuto Fast Draw.
http://store.zacuto.com/fast-draw/
It appears with its offset the C100 would work much like a 5D. Slide it closer and possibly lose the arm on the Fast Draw.

Will let everyone know how I get on and my final decision cheers for everyones input !
 
I like mine a lot... just change the handle to a Zacuto relocator on the right and a wooden handle on the left. Pic follows later.
Btw. still have three wodden handles (right side) for sale.

Foto 15.10.13 10 14 10.jpgFoto 23.08.13 20 12 05.jpgFoto 23.08.13 20 11 35.jpg
 
Oh! So "beast" is a compliment? OK, no offense taken. I believe in having two front grips because when I place the whole rig on the ground or a table I don't like it flopping over on its side, which is why I had the custom left handle made. I also make sure that all 3 bottom points are rubberized because there have been a few thousand times when non-thinking crew members place the rig on someone's expensive dining room table or conference table. I don't want to pay to have a table sanded and re-stained.

I considered the Zacuto Axis because I am forever adjusting the angle of the EVF but rejected it as too unwieldy, however, if you are doing the kind of shoots where you're on dollies, etc. it would be valuable to quickly adjust the angle and/or height. Also, if you have to quickly strip down the unit for doco shooting that's one more thing that will take a couple of minutes to dismount. "Hey, anybody know where my Allen Wrenches are?" As a freelancer I often have to rent bodies to satisfy clients' requests so I made mine modular to work with perhaps an F3, FS700, etc. that's why I want the doo dads to attach to the rig rather than the body.

Love the quick release plate the Tilta Rig uses because it is the same as for my large teleprompter and my full size rig. It spreads out the distance between nodal points so I can quickly slide the base plate of the Sachtler back and forth to balance. Also, there's a loud definitive CLICK noise so I know it's seated properly. I have one where I removed the safety latch so I can do it with one hand, which I know is dangerous but sometimes every millisecond counts (sports, wildlife, news, etc.).

Looking into, and saving my pennies, for the Zacuto Tornado that Erik likes. That would be perfect in that I would never need to have my hands leave the handles except for pressing an assigned button, which I seem to have to do a lot with the C100. In fact, remembering by feel which button does what is a constant hassle. In the old days when all I needed were three assigned buttons that was easy. Now with this many I have to take the rig off my shoulder and closely look at the number on the button.

My theory is if I don't power off ONE LARGE SOURCE, I will have to carry different brands of teeny batteries and chargers for: EVF, C100, Ninja, Lectrosonics receiver, LED light, etc. So a Dionic 50 will last all day long and is a USEFUL counterweight rather than a dumbbell. Imagine keeping track of all those little batteries and chargers. To me that's a nightmare, especially if it's a shoot day with multiple locations. (I just bought a Visual Buddha 1x1 Bi-Color LED so that too powers off an AB batt!)

But as with all new cameras I am waiting for more money to come in from using it before digging the hole deeper. A shoulder rig makes your life easier, your shooting more smooth and fun. It does NOT bring in money. You can justify it by saying that your smoother camerawork will bring in more clients but basically a rig is another shovel full of dirt in the expense hole. Consider the bang for the buck, or whatever you call money Down Under. The basic Tilta Rig with two front rods and two shorter back rods, cheeseplate, Gold Mount, Anton Bauer Quad D-Tap, short Israeli arm, BEC box, Relocator- price those out and compare that to what the Z option will cost. That's my point, you have to add up ALL the components's costs of the rig. If the basic skeleton part is very expensive...If you aren't planning right I bet it will be half the price of the C100? And that's how I ended up determining the Tilta was for me (plus Erik's review).

Cheers,

Ned
 
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