Shoulder Mount vs. Handheld Style

[spencer]

After research, which I'm sure is about as accurate as if a monkey were doing research on the subject, I've finally settled myself on the fact that I would prefer the HVX over all the competitor cameras out right now. I now believe, from reading stuff on this forum, that I did in fact make the right choice.

But I did notice that a lot of people actually made a fairly large deal about a difference between the style of the HVX and Z1s and whatnot in comparison to the HD-100. My question is how big of a difference there really is. Is there camera techniques that aren't really able to be done with handhelds but able to do with Shoulder mount ones? Am I missing out on something big in a cinematography sense if I skip out on a shoulder mount?

Thanks for answering one in a line of thousands of stupid questions. I'll get better, I promise (and even if i dont', I'll eventually get a HVX, so I'll be too busy to actually care about tech aspects that don't directly affect the picture.:laugh: )

 

[stephenlnoe]

My question is how big of a difference there really is. Is there camera techniques that aren't really able to be done with handhelds but able to do with Shoulder mount ones?

Hi,

It's all up to you.

To me, once you use a shoulder mounted camera and see how steady it is compared to a handheld camera (especially when zoomed) you'd not want to use a handheld camera. On the other hand, small hand held camera's like the DVC30 or GL2 are easy to conceal. The DVX100 (IMO) is a huge handheld camera (unconcealable). The HVX is even bigger than a DVX100.

Anyway, it comes down to what YOU need.

 

[Jaime Valles]

You could get a handheld-style camera (HVX or Z1) and then add a shoulder-mount like the DVRig Pro. Best of both worlds, right?

 

[Sumfun]

You could get a handheld-style camera (HVX or Z1) and then add a shoulder-mount like the DVRig Pro. Best of both worlds, right?

Or add a tripod or monopod or steadicam. The shoulder mounts are more stable because you're supporting it with your whole body not just your arms. You can make up for the stability with these supports, but it's not as convenient.

But there are some tight situations that a handheld does a better job than a shoulder mount. I've shot from a WW2 fighter cockpit and from a balloon with a DVX, and I don't think a shoulder mount would have fitted into those places.

 

[dregenthal]

I recently attended a seminar where on of the other participants had an HD-100. That thing is so darn pretty that, if I bought one, I’d never get anything done because I’d end up just sitting around looking at it all day . . .

Meaning no disrespect to anyone (or anyone’s opinion) but I could’nt help but snicker a little because he looked kinda silly running around with ALL 5 POUNDS OF IT hefted up on his shoulder. I know “the look” is cool and all, but come on gang, the reason the larger format cams are shoulder mounts is because they’re too heavy (and about 5 times larger) to do hand-held work.

Who knows, maybe a year from now Panasonic will leap-frog ‘em all when the HVX-200A comes out as a helmet mount?

(just kidding).

 

[spencer]

So the DV Rig Pro thing is meant to stimulate a shoulder mount? I mean, it is a shoulder mount, but that is the handheld equivalent on the HD100's mount?

 

[harddrive]

You could get a handheld-style camera (HVX or Z1) and then add a shoulder-mount like the DVRig Pro. Best of both worlds, right?

No - a shoulder mount "addon" may improve some of the problems, but at the expense of bulk and "fiddiliness", and without additional measures the whole thing is still front heavy.

Balance etc is only half of the problem anyway - the other is that with such as the Z1 the entire length of the camera is in front of ones face, whereas with such as the HD100 half of it is tucked away by the side of the face. Guess which styling wins hands down in confined spaces, crowds etc!? Adding a shoulder mount just makes a problem worse in this respect.

For a camera such as the Sony A1/HC1 the styling works well - it's much smaller and lighter. Just scaling that design up to cameras the size and weight of the Z1 and the HVX doesn't make sense, and whilst many people not be happy with some aspects of the HD100, then boy, this is one thing JVC did get right. I regularly have to handhold a DSR500 at the moment without too many problems, but couldn't believe how difficult the Z1 was in comparison, despite being much lighter, and I fear the HVX may have the same problem.

Colleagues have speculated that it is a deliberate policy by Sony and Panasonic to not make their cheaper offerings too attractive, for fear of spoiling their higher end sales - JVC don't have such a problem. I don't normally go with conspiracy theories, but am left wondering in this case.......

 

[OliverM]

You can adjust the front-heavyness with a counterbalance weight. I'm going for a pag orbitor. Yes, these shouldermounts are bulky; but so is a bigsize shouldercamera.
And if you shoot 'handheld' a lot it's a must have imo. I shoot most stuff on tripod but am defenitly getting one for the remaining shots. I don't mind the bit of hassle that comes with it. If I didn't want that then I should have gone for a fullsize, 20k or up shouldermount camera.
But the set-up with a DVX (soon HVX ) and a decent shouldermount gets me a verry decent picture for my budget.

 

[harddrive]

You can adjust the front-heavyness with a counterbalance weight. I'm going for a pag orbitor. Yes, these shouldermounts are bulky; but so is a bigsize shouldercamera.

I think that's the whole point really isn't it? Why should it be necessary to have to pay lots of extra money and have all the hassle of counterweights, when just as good an operation could be had if the camera was physiaclly designed properly in the first place!?! Whatever it's other failings may be, that must be the best thing about the HD100 - it lacks the bigsize and weight of a 2/3" camera, but keeps the best of the styling features.

A camera brace may be not so bad for planned shoots, but for news, documentary etc or anything in a crowd, it's a big drawback.

 

[Benton]

The nice thing about the HVX200 small size is that you can do whatever you want :
Shoulder support is easy, even a steady stick does this
But handheld Steadycam work is also an option,

I was thinking of the steadycam Merlin (which folds into a shoulder support I believe)
but I am not sure if the HVX is too heavy
So I think a Glidecam 400
or a Varizoom Flowpod will be the answer
Both around 500$ will allow you to do some small stints of steady hand held work
and the flowpod will act as a monopod
and both will snap into a vest and arm if you need it later

 

[taubkin]

most of the time I'm just thankful my DVX isn't a shouldermount. There are various shots I can get with the handycam form factor that wouldn't be possible with a shouldermount. For event/wedding work where you have to hold the camera for hours, shouldermounts can be more confortable. I think the greatest thing abut those new cameras are that they are small and light. The newest film cameras in the market are actually going for this (235, A-minima) instead of getting bulkier...

 

[Gibby]

...the reason the larger format cams are shoulder mounts is because they’re too heavy (and about 5 times larger) to do hand-held work.

In my view that depends on the size of the camera relative to the size, strength, and physical conditioning of the videographer/cinematographer. Though I'm 57 years old, I'm 6'2", 200 pounds, and in excellent physical condition. Throughout my entire production career of 27 years I've worked out daily in a gym and/or done intense daily sports activities. I enjoy the workouts personally, but the second reason I do them is to enhance my mobility and durability as a hand held camera operator. I shoot a lot of adventure travel, action sports, documentaries, nature, and stock footage.

Since unibody professional ENG cameras were first marketed in the mid-'80's, I have been using every make of full-sized camera repeatedly in handheld shooting situations. Because I've always been strong and in good condition, I've been able to use full-sized, 35-40 pound cameras in ways most people don't think is possible.

Examples:

- running full speed next to a skateboarder while suspending the camera with one arm about 2" from the ground and getting shots smooth enough that most pros would guess it was shot with a low-mount Steadycam or dolly-mounted car.

- swimming for hours on end with a full-sized camera in a custom housing

- reaching a full sized camera overhead above a crowd, at arms length, with an external-mounted LCD pointed down for framing purposes

and many, many more examples.

My point is that the performance envelope of any camera for hand held use is contingent on the strength and conditioning of the videographer/cinematographer. If you want to be able to get those "hard to get" mobile shots, especially for a long shooting day, staying in good physical conditioning is critical to your performance on the job. When I hire camera operators for my programs, the out of shape ones are always assigned to sticks work, and I intentionally hire physically fit camera operators for the mobile, hand held shooting. As a director, I always have to think about those variables. The footage for the program comes out much better that way.

I'll probably accessorize the HVX with a pistol grip servozoom unit for two-point holding of the camera, especially hand-held high angles. I'll also buy a shoulder brace and a FigRig for certain types of shooting scenarios. But the most important asset to long days of mobile, hand held shooting with the HVX will be my daily physical workouts so I'm strong enough to sling the camera around at arms length all day if necessary. Whether you do hand held ENG-style or cine-style, being in good physical condition will enhance your ability to do good work.

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[xray]

You can wait for the new HVX200 Training Programme, exercises to train your front arm and shoulder muscles daily for a period of 6 months. You hold dead weight (+ 3 kilo ) in front of you with strained arms for 2 minutes and then switch over to the other arm..

The programma comes associated with a music cd that brings you tranquil Zen music and trains you ´how to hold your breath for 2 minutes` so you can avoid camera shake.

Then you only have to buy a big bag to hold the external mobile hard disk drives to offload! your P2 shoot, an new external shoulder-mount with carrying handle to rest between the handhold low shots and you are done!

 

[Can Scanner]

"The DVX100 (IMO) is a huge handheld camera (unconcealable). The HVX is even bigger than a DVX100."

And this is precisely why I'm not going with the HVX. If there's one thing I need most, it's to be able to shoot out of my sleeve.

 

[evinsky]

It is possible, in fact easy to get shoulder mount quality shots from a DVX or HVX. It is all about technique. Although good phisical condition does make a difference. For instance on long tele shots I turn up the viewfinder and wedge the battery/viewfinder up againnst my shoulder. Looking down into the LCD this provides an incredibly stable position that is comfortable for very long periods. The key is to have as manny support points as possible, always use two hands and pivot from the waist on pans. Lock your elbows into your chest and bring the viewfinder to your eye and you will again have 3 connection points. After some practice you can achieve the same stable handheld moves as the shoulder rigs.

 

[Stevet]

"The DVX100 (IMO) is a huge handheld camera (unconcealable). The HVX is even bigger than a DVX100."

And this is precisely why I'm not going with the HVX. If there's one thing I need most, it's to be able to shoot out of my sleeve.

Great!
This makes me one person closer to getting one of the first batch HVX200s!
hahaha

 

[Gibby]

It is possible, in fact easy to get shoulder mount quality shots from a DVX or HVX. It is all about technique. Although good phisical condition does make a difference. For instance on long tele shots I turn up the viewfinder and wedge the battery/viewfinder up againnst my shoulder. Looking down into the LCD this provides an incredibly stable position that is comfortable for very long periods. The key is to have as manny support points as possible, always use two hands and pivot from the waist on pans. Lock your elbows into your chest and bring the viewfinder to your eye and you will again have 3 connection points. After some practice you can achieve the same stable handheld moves as the shoulder rigs.

You're right! In those techniques, your body essentially becomes a "tripod", and your trunk rotation a "fluid head" movement of sorts. I use those same techniques with hand held use of mid-sized cameras like the DVX, PD150, etc. Also, if you have to shoot while walking with the camera, get a good two-point grip, keep your elbows bent, wear soft sole shoes, keep your knees slightly bent, and concentrate on floating the camera along. Practice makes perfect. Creative hand held shooting with a mid-sized camera is like doing Tai Chi while holding a camera. Balance, flexibility, and strength really help. If you have those three characteristics you'll be a better hand held camera op, have a better demo reel, be hired for a wider variety of jobs, and thus make more revenue.

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[mystico]

Hi,

It's all up to you.

To me, once you use a shoulder mounted camera and see how steady it is compared to a handheld camera (especially when zoomed) you'd not want to use a handheld camera. On the other hand, small hand held camera's like the DVC30 or GL2 are easy to conceal. The DVX100 (IMO) is a huge handheld camera (unconcealable). The HVX is even bigger than a DVX100.

Anyway, it comes down to what YOU need.

Could I sneak a question in here ... This is a long one so brace yourselves ...

Reading multiple messages on multiple forums has given me the impression that using a monopod (or some stabiliser) is a good investment for wedding video. I am an upstart company, so still acquiring equipment. I just got a Panasonic AG-DVC60 which is a shoulder-mount cam. My plan is to have a DVX100B as my primary cam and the DVC60 as primary. Here is the problem: I'm assuming using a shoulder-mount cam precludes the need for an type of stabiliser. This is ok for the ceremony, as I will walk around with the DVC60 and have the DVX set up on a tripod to get the wide-angle. However, once I'm at the reception and doing the one-cam shoot, I'm going to want to pop that DVX out as my primary cam, since it's the more advanced cam. Not being shoulder-mount, it will require some stabilisation. I've only used it once, and the footage shows that I must have gotten used to it after awhile, b/c there's more shakiness during the ceremony than the reception. Anyway, here are my options as I see them ...
(1) Accept that the more advanced DVX will actually be the secondary cam b/c the DVC beats it for stability. No monopod needed.
(2) Love on the DVX by walking around with it at the reception, thereby possibly necessitating a monopod.
(3) Go with #2, but just get better at holding it steady.

By the way, I do use a tripod during certain moments at receptions (entry/introduction of bridal party, speech/toast, bouquet and garter. Otherwise I'm handheld.

Any thoughts? Sorry for the long post ...

 

[mystico]

It is possible, in fact easy to get shoulder mount quality shots from a DVX or HVX. It is all about technique. Although good phisical condition does make a difference. For instance on long tele shots I turn up the viewfinder and wedge the battery/viewfinder up againnst my shoulder. Looking down into the LCD this provides an incredibly stable position that is comfortable for very long periods. The key is to have as manny support points as possible, always use two hands and pivot from the waist on pans. Lock your elbows into your chest and bring the viewfinder to your eye and you will again have 3 connection points. After some practice you can achieve the same stable handheld moves as the shoulder rigs.

I've only used the DVX once during a wedding (rented). And I did that same thing. I hadn't had enough time with it to develop a comfortable hold b/c I rented it the day before the wedding. However, I naturally found myself putting it against my shoulder almost like a shoulder-mount. Or against my chest and looking downward onto the LCD like you mentioned.

BTW though, how does one lock one's elbows against one's chest? Seems anatomically impossible--unless I'm just THAT inflexible!

 

[hdimages.ca]

have made a shoulder mount,for my hvx200. with 2 grab handles 12 in. apart. my gyro stableizer bolt on the bottom .inverter box and 12v battery is the counter balance. got great shots with the 2x telephoto. a lighter set up if in a heli is battery on the floor and gyro bolted on the back counter balance the camera. have a vari control on the left grip for iris,focus, control.works great.