Should "trying" really be encouraged?

[Nathyn]

This, the GetterDoner, should NOT be encouraged by ANYONE, for ANY reason

But why? Wouldn't that be left up to society to decide if they want to buy or be involved with the work. Wouldn't proper encouragement push them forward to do better. I don't think the problem is in encouragement, I think it's that people don't get proper encouragement.

i am all for someone with no experience trying to make something, but only if they are passionate and dedicated and do the proper research before diving in.

and yea, it's a tough world, and if you have no stomach for criticism, well.... might wanna choose a less critical profession

This is true with all art. And I think a lot of people feel that their art is perfect as it. The right type of criticism is helpful and creates a bond between the critic and the artist. Then again, I know people who simply don't get it and think they're the stuff, then when you point out things to help, they get offended. (This happens with talented and untalented alike). But in the end I'm more likely to simply not discuss art with that person than to discourage them. I don't know what life holds for them, but I will let them live their life as their own.

-Nate

 

[Batutta]

I think with a lot of "trying" certain people can, at the very least, become competent craftsmen, and competent craftsmen will always be valued. Unless you have serious learning disabilities, anyone can get better through continued effort. Not everyone is going to be the next Scorsese or whatever. But being someone like John Dahl or Curtis Hanson isn't so bad either, filmmakers who produce generally solid work and the occasional gem.

 

[DanielRutter]

wow, need to chime in, but must keep out of rant mode, must try....
theres a distinction that needs to be emphasized, because there are two different people being referred to here: the PASSIONATE AND DEDICATED, and then there are the GETTERDONERS...

I'm actually with you there, I agree... but I believe I fall into the category of "getterdoner". I've been at this "film" making thing for maybe three or so years, a few crappy short films under my belt... I've gone to a school and studied video (not film) as a money making form and came away with nothing that really taught me anything different about making movies.

I've not done anything in the last couple of months because I'm trying to force my way out of the wet paper bag that is "The getterdoner" (as you put it). Have I mentioned that I'm 22, and that film is all I want to do with my life? I've had plans for a while to make a feature film, down to the idea... some of the story and a little of the pre-production (I still don't have a script). I know that in my current stage/frame of mind... if I made the film, it'd be **** and I'd have wasted mine and other peoples time. If I wait, I may never make it. I'm stuck in this rut at the moment where I can't make anything because the big voice in my head says "stop, listen, plan". Add to the fact that I pick up my camera to film something, and I get angry that I can't frame this shot, or can't get this actor to do what I ask.
I actually cancelled a short film shoot a few days ago simply based on the fact that although I wasn't the director (I was "coaching" a ten year old girl who wrote a script, and helping her direct it), I didn't "feel" the story... and I also knew that the actors in their current stage weren't feeling the script either, nor were they interested in really doing it.

I guess you could say, this Getterdoner kid can't get anything done... I'm not even sure if I want to do film making anymore sometimes! But I do know I couldn't do labor work, or any other 9-5 job for the rest of my life.

Do you think a person such as myself should be encouraged to try, or think they/I should just give up?

 

[Brian_Rice]

I still don't agree. You aren't "Saving someones life." I will NEVER be the person to tell you that I am absolutely confident I can look at someone and say "I can judge your talent and know you should never do this and you'll never be good at it." Sure, I can critique what they've currently done and will do so if asked, but to say that *I* know their capability in the future is arrogance. I've watched many people that for long periods of time, never *got it* only to finally climb over that hump in their capability and do amazing things.

Sure, there are a lot of people with horrible attitudes, people that don't listen and think they know everything. This, however, is a different problem. You can't encourage someone like this because they are not able to understand encouragement. They feel like they've already mastered everything. I've also seen and worked with these sorts of people. Their reality check is coming, and nothing you will say or do will change them because, at the end of the day, it's an ego problem.

As a great friend once told me "It's not the final product that matters, it's the journey" and I like that. I like thinking about all the people that have helped and encouraged me to be better. Even if I hear someone that is HORRIBLE, as long as they are receptive and really want to learn more, I help them, I encourage them. They have the passion even if they don't have the skill (yet). If they are just looking to stroke their ego and that's it, then no, I don't encourage them.

I would tell you this though Brian, even though I've not read your novels. If you enjoy writing, then write. Why does it have to be about what others think? Why does it have to lead to a career? I don't write because I want to sell my novels to others, I write because *I* enjoy developing a fictional world where I control EVERYTHING that happens. Even if your father or your wife doesn't like your writing, so what. It's not always about being the best at it, it's about doing something you love. THAT is what matters.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I must really not be clarifying myself here. (See why I don't do much literary prose? lol)

If you want to actually DO ART FOR A LIVING. These are the people I'm referring to. I'm not talking about someone expressing themselves. God, why would I ever discourage that? My mom owns and operates two music schools. She's a success. She's been playing every kind of instrument since she was, like, born. She plays in orchestras, etc. But my mom is not trying to be in the Chicago Symphony. Some of her friends have, but she recognized her level of talent and so found her true pursuit -- which was teaching.

Of course you should doodle, and film things, and play piano at the office christmas party. But if I don't think you have the chops, I'm sorry, I'm not going to ENCOURAGE you to chase the arts as a career.

In dance and sports this does not seem to be of any issue, but when it comes to filmmaking, writing, acting, et al everyone turns into puss 'n boots.

Making this a life is not a game. You will potentially lose EVERYTHING that equates normalcy and security. You will potentially lose it and never be able to get it back should you realize that you aren't good enough to succeed.

Encouraging some 18 year old to make a career of this via encouragement could be so completely damaging.

And to the prose writing -- I actually still do it, but I know it's **** and genre and just for fun now. I understand (thank god) that that is not where my talents are best invested. Just like an auto mechanic's talents might not be best invested doing pirouettes.

Do whatever makes you happy, of course. Experience all facets of life! But this is a deadly, deadly serious game. *Trying* to be the next Tom Cruise will most likely (or, certainly) leave you a crumpled mess of a worthless existence. I don't encourage that.

 

[Nathyn]

How many art form actually have prodigies? Most art forms have to be worked at before they can be perfected. Why should anyone stick to one art form? You can be good in one art form, but there's always the possibility of being good in another. But you can't know it unless you TRY. As in, attempting something you haven't done before, without knowing what the results will be. It's called experimentation.

I've done writing, drawing, movies and music and I've been surprised by the responses I've gotten, so it's worth trying.

-Nate

 

[Nathyn]

If you want to actually DO ART FOR A LIVING. These are the people I'm referring to.

Still missing why they should be discouraged versus properly encouraged.

-Nate

 

[Brian_Rice]

I'm actually with you there, I agree... but I believe I fall into the category of "getterdoner". I've been at this "film" making thing for maybe three or so years, a few crappy short films under my belt... I've gone to a school and studied video (not film) as a money making form and came away with nothing that really taught me anything different about making movies.

I've not done anything in the last couple of months because I'm trying to force my way out of the wet paper bag that is "The getterdoner" (as you put it). Have I mentioned that I'm 22, and that film is all I want to do with my life? I've had plans for a while to make a feature film, down to the idea... some of the story and a little of the pre-production (I still don't have a script). I know that in my current stage/frame of mind... if I made the film, it'd be s**t and I'd have wasted mine and other peoples time. If I wait, I may never make it. I'm stuck in this rut at the moment where I can't make anything because the big voice in my head says "stop, listen, plan". Add to the fact that I pick up my camera to film something, and I get angry that I can't frame this shot, or can't get this actor to do what I ask.
I actually cancelled a short film shoot a few days ago simply based on the fact that although I wasn't the director (I was "coaching" a ten year old girl who wrote a script, and helping her direct it), I didn't "feel" the story... and I also knew that the actors in their current stage weren't feeling the script either, nor were they interested in really doing it.

I guess you could say, this Getterdoner kid can't get anything done... I'm not even sure if I want to do film making anymore sometimes! But I do know I couldn't do labor work, or any other 9-5 job for the rest of my life.

Do you think a person such as myself should be encouraged to try, or think they/I should just give up?

Well, if you have to ask...lol

No, of course no one can judge you based on your attitude. The right kind of attitude is great and can be a valuable ally in the arts, but by itself it doesn't mean anything.

 

[bhal1075]

After reading the clarifying post by Brian, I'm going to have to disagree with him. No one has the innate ability of filmmaking. They may be innately creative and depends on how they apply that ability to what they do in life. They could go into business or become a mechanic, or even be a filmmaker. Then apply that innately creative brain to greatly improve whatever field they are in. That doesn't mean that someone who is not creative but has other skills cannot be in a creative field, they just apply different skill sets and abilities to accomplish the same thing. Most creative people severly lack in other skills, so there is a place for everyone in every field, no one person can do everything, its a mix of skill sets and abilities that makes a great _____ anything.

I am, however, against telling people what I good job they've done and encouraging them when they clearly have no clue.

 

[Brian_Rice]

Still missing why they should be discouraged versus properly encouraged.

-Nate

Then I think you missed all of my points. Did you see the one about the ex-actor selling their body for heroin? Thought that one was pretty telling.

If you were a professional piano player and could identify the innate abilities that dictate whether or not someone else could also be a great pianist, if that someone played the piano and you recognized that they had no discernable talent, and then they asked you if they should make it a career, would you encourage them to make it a career or would you encourage them to not make it a career? Rememeber, this is about ability, not the lottery jumbled mess of society wherein people with no talent can achieve things. As a professional piano player, based solely on ability, would you encourage that person to pursue their dream, or no?

This happens every day. Every day good music teachers inform specific students that they should not make music a career. Dance instructors tell dancers every day that a certain amount of their students should not try to be professional dancers.

People like to point to exceptions to the rule, but those exceptions were EXCEPTIONAL. Spud Web is an EXCEPTIONAL athlete. Ray Charles was exceptional despite having a handicap. This isn't about whether or not you encourage EXCEPTIONAL people to overcome their short comings.

And again, yes a person can become rich and famous while being horrible at what they do. OF COURSE they can. But if we encourage everyone to pursue things blindly, you're doing nothing more than encouraging people to put their ENTIRE LIFE in a slot machine and pull the lever. That's all your accomplishing. It's completely damaging. I just can't manage to see it any other way.

 

[Brian_Rice]

After reading the clarifying post by Brian, I'm going to have to disagree with him. No one has the innate ability of filmmaking. They may be innately creative and depends on how they apply that ability to what they do in life. They could go into business or become a mechanic, or even be a filmmaker. Then apply that innately creative brain to greatly improve whatever field they are in. That doesn't mean that someone who is not creative but has other skills cannot be in a creative field, they just apply different skill sets and abilities to accomplish the same thing. Most creative people severly lack in other skills, so there is a place for everyone in every field, no one person can do everything, its a mix of skill sets and abilities that makes a great _____ anything.

I am, however, against telling people what I good job they've done and encouraging them when they clearly have no clue.

And you might be right about filmmaking. I've got not clue about filmmaking. Did you miss the part where I bought "filmmaking for dummies"? lol

I draw and film and animate and everything else under the sun as a means to an end. If someone says "****, that art sucks. You should kill yourself," I totally agree that the someone who is me should never in life attempt to be a professional filmmaker, artist, dancer or juggler. If any of these should ever happen then the bottom has truly fallen out of the creative universe.

I posed this question as a "Filmmakers, for instance".

Personally when I watch a Martin Scorsese movie and then I watch the average straight-to-dvd Netflix on Demand film I'm seeing a difference in the shot composition and storytelling. But, come on, is Woody Allen a great *filmmaker*? I don't think so, but I completely enjoy his writing and sometimes have even enjoyed his acting bits. But he's a filmmaker as a means to an end. I think.

The discussion here, for me, is more of a general principle. The idea of blindly encouraging people because "One should always encourage".

I'm saying one should NOT always encourage and in fact one might want to consider DISCOURAGEMENT as a better option for helping your fellow man make his way through life.

Discouraging my friend to go into the army was the right thing to do. He knows that now, wasn't sure about it at the time. See?

 

[Batutta]

But if we encourage everyone to pursue things blindly, you're doing nothing more than encouraging people to put their ENTIRE LIFE in a slot machine and pull the lever. That's all your accomplishing. It's completely damaging. I just can't manage to see it any other way.

But so what, it's their life to mess up, not yours. If someone does crap work, tell them they did crap work. What they do with that information is up to them. But telling them sincerely that they should give up presumes knowledge you don't have. Some people do their best work early in life, some do it later after many years of refinement, and success exists all along that spectrum.

 

[Brian_Rice]

I've long had the discussion with people as to whether or not filmmaking is an art or a trade. It can be argued both ways. So if filmmaking is not an art form and is instead a trade, then there's no such thing as talent, there is only practical appliance. In which case this thread using filmmaking as it's source observance is probably less effective.

 

[Brian_Rice]

But so what, it's their life to mess up, not yours. If someone does crap work, tell them they did crap work. What they do with that information is up to them. But telling them sincerely that they should give up presumes knowledge you don't have. Some people do their best work early in life, some do it later after many years of refinement, and success exists all along that spectrum.

People can improve as technicians, yes. Which is why, again, film might not be the best center piece for this argument as film could have more to do with technical proficiency than it does with creativity.

 

[bhal1075]

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, in fact I'm almost 90% with you. The only issue I took was saying if someone doesn't have an innate ability, they shouldn't do it. It takes all kinds. You can be great at something without that obvious one great skill or ability. Some people can combine different skills and abilities and come up with a whole new way of doing something, and that applies to any field. We have no way of telling if someone can or can't do something, but we can tell them what they have done is horrible and here's why. They either learn from it and get better or they feel bad about themselves and move on.

 

[Batutta]

People can improve as technicians, yes. Which is why, again, film might not be the best center piece for this argument as film has probably more to do with technical proficiency than it does with creativity.

I think it applies to all the arts, frankly. All the arts have a technical aspect to them. The "art" in art comes from what the specific artist is trying to say with his work. Some young artists don't have anything interesting to say, and couple that with technical incompetence, and you get crap. But who is to say that later in life, they won't develop an interesting point of view. If they haven't been developing their craft along the way, they won't be able to express it fully.

 

[bhal1075]

I've long had the discussion with people as to whether or not filmmaking is an art or a trade. It can be argued both ways. So if filmmaking is not an art form and is instead a trade, then there's no such thing as talent, there is only practical appliance. In which case this thread using filmmaking as it's source observance is probably less effective.

But if it's an art, then everything is opinion. Art is meant to cause an emotional reaction, just because it doesn't cause a reaction to you and you deem it crap, doesn't mean it won't cause an emotional reaction in others.

 

[SPZ]

I have a story i would like to share: I was in the fifth and final year of my University Course. We were presenting ideas to a teacher for our final film production grade. One student suggested to do a non-linear story, and he used the Director Peter Greenway as an example. The teacher replied with "Don't any of you think you'll ever be of the level of Peter Greenway". That really pissed me off. I raised my voice and replied: "Yes, we'll probably all end up in some random University teaching a film production class". Who is me, or you, or anyone to say you can't or will not be able to achieve anything? It is and will always be our own subjective opinion. Someone like Van Gogh lived and died poor. His art was only recognized after his death. he was not a "painter" in the "professional sense". It obviously needs talent, but more than that hard-work, determination, passion and perseverance. I don't know a single director whose first film- may it be a short to feature- that wasn't mediocre. And when I say first film i don't say the first distributed film, but the first experiments, the first "tries". Its a craft, much like any other art. You can have talent, but that talent may not show at the first try. My first short film was absolute sh#t, for example. i think I've improved a lot nowadays, with people actually paying to watch my fiction material. I remember with fond memories those that pointed with constructive criticism my mistakes and gave me incentives to keep going and to try different things. But I also remember pretty clearly those like that professor that said "you bunch will never get anywhere". I despise these people, honestly.

 

[Brian_Rice]

But if it's an art, then everything is opinion. Art is meant to cause an emotional reaction, just because it doesn't cause a reaction to you and you deem it crap, doesn't mean it won't cause an emotional reaction in others.

I dunno. That seems like something out of the excuse factory to me. I like the idea of what you're saying, but it just doesn't ring true. That's like saying you suck at football but people are entertained watching you suck so shouldn't you be drafted by the NFL.

I mean if you rape and mutilate a 4 year old on the big screen I'm going to have a reaction. Doesn't mean you've done anything of any value or that adds to the human experience.

Like I said, though. Film is a tricky one. I just posted a poll to see what the view is on this.

But yeah, I don't think calling something art means that it's now removed from being judged, riduculed and dismissed as worthless crap.

Again, you can *like* something, you can have a *reaction* to something, but it doesn't mean it's any good. I like a very many things that are utter s**t. AVP? I own AVP. I enjoy watching it. But it's complete crap. Just because I like something doesn't mean it's any good or of any discernable value. If AVP did not exist it would not make me any better or worse. If, however, say Taxi Driver didn't exist, I might be less of a person.

See the difference? One adds to the human experience, one does nothing to inform or alter it.

 

[Brian_Rice]

I have a story i would like to share: I was in the fifth and final year of my University Course. We were presenting ideas to a teacher for our final film production grade. One student suggested to do a non-linear story, and he used the Director Peter Greenway as an example. The teacher replied with "Don't any of you think you'll ever be of the level of Peter Greenway". That really pissed me off. I raised my voice and replied: "Yes, we'll probably all end up in some random University teaching a film production class". Who is me, or you, or anyone to say you can't or will not be able to achieve anything? It is and will always be our own subjective opinion. Someone like Van Gogh lived and died poor. His art was only recognized after his death. he was not a "painter" in the "professional sense". It obviously needs talent, but more than that hard-work, determination, passion and perseverance. I don't know a single director whose first film- may it be a short to feature- that wasn't mediocre. And when I say first film i don't say the first distributed film, but the first experiments, the first "tries". Its a craft, much like any other art. You can have talent, but that talent may not show at the first try. My first short film was absolute sh#t, for example. i think I've improved a lot nowadays, with people actually paying to watch my fiction material. I remember with fond memories those that pointed with constructive criticism my mistakes and gave me incentives to keep going and to try different things. But I also remember pretty clearly those like that professor that said "you bunch will never get anywhere". I despise these people, honestly.

Innate talent *always* shows up on the first try. That's kind of the whole definition of it.

 

[Rick Burnett]

Just like music, it can be either. I had a LONG discussion with a friend recently about the artist and the entertainer. They can be one in the same, and they can be different. I have spent a lot of time with people that hate pop music because it isn't personal, gut wrenching, from the soul music. I told them, they didn't get it. That music wasn't there to be some cherished masterpiece of all time. It was there for entertainment value. It was there for dancing, not deep introspection.

Most of the people I know that are in the music industry and successful are not the musicians, they are the engineers behind the desk. They don't even make music anymore because they've been sucked into the business/entertainment side of it. I see this with people in videography or DJing as well. They start doing weddings for the money, which to them was really good, but then lose focus of what they really wanted to do. Not that there is ANYTHING wrong with being a wedding shooter or a DJ, I've known people who LOVE this work. It's the people that get caught up in the money more than their passion, and then, they are unhappy. I mention this because, again, there are all kinds of people in the industry at all different levels, and not all of it is for art.

Who cares if someone wants to do this for a living and they aren't good. *THIS* is the journey they are making. If they just quit now and listened to people who told them they sucked or never had a chance in the future, they'll always wonder if they kept at it longer, maybe they would have made it. I would NEVER want to put myself in that situation. It's like the old saying "You can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." People need to go through the journey to see for themselves. Even if they end up NOT being a filmmaker, they'll at least know what they don't want to do. They'll have at least learned a tremendous amount.

There is a BIG distinction between encouraging someone and not being honest with them. If someone is REALLY passionate about wanting to do something, and their work is not up to par, I'm not going to kick them when they are down. I am going to focus on ONE or TWO things they can improve on and talk with them about it. Each little piece is a learning experience. Sure, I might think their material is horrible beyond belief, but again, I'm not in their mind. A few simple concepts could turn them around.

Have you ever had an epiphany moment where all of a sudden something made complete sense that NEVER made sense before and completely changed the way you understood things? Something that was right in front of your face yet you failed to see it for a long time and now you've just made a huge leap in your ability? I've had MANY of these moments. I'm almost envious of the horrible filmmaker that they can experience this so easily with the help of others It's just a great feeling and all of a sudden opens you up to a whole new world in your endeavor. It's like leveling up!

And really, to me, it has no relevance if they want to do this as a career or a hobby. To me it is all about their passion in it. When you find someone who is eager for knowledge and you can share some great advice with them, to see them *get* your advice and make use of it, it's a great feeling.

I'd rather be poor and happy than rich and miserable, ANY day.