Should "trying" really be encouraged?

[Brian_Rice]

In the arts, let's say for instance filmmaking, would it be better if so many people didn't just take a random stab at it in hopes of being rich and famous? I always see people saying "Don't discourage the person!"I think this is bad advice. I think people should, on average, be discouraged. Discouraging people is typically associated with being honest with them. I say be honest. Discourage. If something as soft and fluffy as DISCOURAGEMENT is what tears down their dreams, I say thank god the dream is over, because it was a dream and this is real life.I encourage people who I see have *talent*. Period. To a lesser extent I might encourage someone who I think has a good invention or brand or concept. But why would you ever want to encourage some talentless idiot who's basically clogging the drain with their uninspired crap? I'm tired of all the lies I see here and at other art threads. MOST people suck at filmmaking and writing and art in general. Out of the very few talented people making art today, a finite amount of them will actually succeed. Most will die lost, alone and in complete obscurity. Encouraging people who suck to keep trying just seems so damaging to me. However if you discourage them and keep discouraging them (should you believe they have no talent and are a waste of creative space) and they KEEP AT IT, aren't you doing more for them than you are by telling them how horrible their shitty work isn't?I get into so many tiffs with people (moreso before I became a whore to social network marketing) because I tell them why they suck. I once told a FANTASTIC artist who was attempting to also be a writer to never write anything creative ever again. He was complete **** with no sign of any sort of even remote ability or concept of the craft. Dude cried for like weeks, kept bugging me to read more and more crap, but eventually he got it. Eventually he understood that he should stick with what he's great at and leave the other stuff alone. I swear I saved that dude's ****ing life.Be HONEST with people. Especially if they're not being honest with themselves. Coaches are honest. Stop encouraging because you think it's the friendly thing to do. It's not friendly, it's cruel. People are encouraged way too much nowadays and have been for years. Chances are, you are not exceptional -- at anything. And it's okay. Exceptional people are usually lonely and sad and alone and separate. The best people I know are completely without any measurable talent or original thought. These are the happy, unobstructed people. It's okay to be one of them. Not everyone has anything of any real value to add to the conversation. And that's okay. Express yourself if you must, but please, everyone, start being honest with people. If they're **** and not even a 90 page critique could manage to address the amount of spewing bile in their latest opus, they don't get credit just for having done *something*. If it's **** tell them it's **** and beg them to find some other way to experience joy in their life. The most successful business people and artists I know were the ones who were discouraged the most. True story.*rant'd*

 

[n1c02]

I couldnt DIDagree with you more... some people do this out of simply wanting to achieve something... doesnt have to be an art piece on exhibit... but somethnig that challanged them to take that bold step to even try... yes i mean try.. and if someone bring you SH#$% then yes tell then YOUR opinion.. but no reason to be so harsh.. maybe they could do better the 2nd time or the 50th time.... we dont know.. so dioscouraging anyone from doing what makes them happy jsut because it doesnt stand up to what society feels if great then so what.. let them write , paint, sing,, whatever it is.. If this forum were only filled with those "exceptional few" then it would vbe a lonely place here.. because like I said no matter how great we thingk WE are... there is someome else above us that will make us feel that we arent really that exceptional..... that is a vicious circle to be in....

 

[Doc Bernard]

I am going to edit this reply when I get up tomorrow. You bring up good points. But I have some contentions with your premises.

Sorry, just finishing a 34 hour stretch over 48 hours on an Indie production this weekend, and I need to go to bed before I go insane. That's the life of making your living from film-making in the Indie world.

 

[Pookie]

If you can't take criticism, (like you should really take advantage of a spell checker n1co2), you'll go nowhere in this "business".

Nowhere.

Too touchy-feely these days.

 

[Zak Forsman]

In paraphrasing Ira Glass, I would encourage anyone who has good taste in their area of interest to do a volume of work, as much as they can. And close that gap between what they like and their ability to execute on the same level.

 

[Brian_Rice]

@ N1: But that's what I mean. We've become a society of people thinking that *trying* matters. The reason Yoda let Luke know it is because it's one of the most important life lessons you could ever learn -- which no one seems to be getting taught anymore. To TRY is to do NOTHING AT ALL. It's meaningless that you try. Everyone needs to stop ****ing *trying*. We have Jersey shore and Kim Kardashian because of trying. Because people keep being lied to everywhere they go.

 

[Zak Forsman]

On the other hand, if you think other people crowding the arena with bad work is why you aren't getting noticed, you're wrong. Most overnight successes are years or decades in the making.

 

[Brian_Rice]

Bringing up Ira Glass actually, for me, actually brings up another hand in the mess we have now. Not Ira, but the idea of teachers and mentors. Remember when teachers and mentors in the arts were respected and they'd only take on like specific persons who they *knew* (without need of opinion) were talented?

Now we have Filmmaking for Dummies.

I know we have Filmmaking for Dummies because my dumb ass owns a copy!

Nothing of this is right.

 

[Pookie]

"We've become a society of people thinking that *trying* matters."...

No, this is a recent phenomenon, a result of all the PC people who want everything beige.

Check the demographic that watch and make Jersey Shore and Kim Kardashian "important", they will be running things in a few very short years.

Thank god I grew up LONG before "feelings" were first on the agenda.

 

[n1c02]

I know my spelling checking needs work on.. I can take any and all "criticism" given,,, has nothing to do with taking criticism..it has to do with people being told they arent good enough by someone who might not be good enough for the person above them...no one said that the person has to try and then make it to the cinema with their work... but never discourage trying... trying doesnt mean that you will fail or succeed... but that you made an attempt with what you knew how.. if it doesnt work.. go back learn from your mistakes and try again... simple as that... anything else comes of as ingorance...

 

[Brian_Rice]

On the other hand, if you think other people crowding the arena with bad work is why you aren't getting noticed, you're wrong. Most overnight successes are years or decades in the making.

Ha! Wouldn't that be awesome? Like if I felt everything in my life wasn't my fault? If I don't get something or achieve something it's because I failed. Knowing that, that I'm in control of at least that aspect of my existence, is all that keeps me sane. Jersey Shore or Kim Kardashian or some desperately bad novelist selling his ebook is what bothers me. It's the concept of everything just being thrown to the weeds and then being assembled in this mass collective called the Internet. You have talented people sharing the same toothbrush with people who think they're talented -- and who are being not *praised* (like the talented folks) but *encouraged*. And then what's worse, is you have people who are *doing* lumped in with those who are *trying*. And somewhere in all this praise and encouragement intertwine and become vague and unintelligible. Trying and doing become, ****, SOMEHOW of equal measure. Money doesn't equalize it. Fame? Ha! Awards? Maybe at the highest level. Fans? *meh* I just feel like people existing the way things exist now...there's a nothing happening. A great big nothing that swallows everything it encounters. It's that black nothingness from the Never Ending Story! Encouragement and lies and zero accountability and TRYING is the big dead void.

 

[Nektonic]

 

[Brian_Rice]

I know my spelling checking needs work on.. I can take any and all "criticism" given,,, has nothing to do with taking criticism..it has to do with people being told they arent good enough by someone who might not be good enough for the person above them...no one said that the person has to try and then make it to the cinema with their work... but never discourage trying... trying doesnt mean that you will fail or succeed... but that you made an attempt with what you knew how.. if it doesnt work.. go back learn from your mistakes and try again... simple as that... anything else comes of as ingorance...

But at the very least you do agree that *trying* does not actually matter, right? It doesn't mean you've accomplished anything or that you should in any way continue your plight. See sometimes people try at something they shouldn't. They then get encouraged to keep trying, which encourages more trying. Not gonna lie, I was told I sucked at everything as a child. lol No joke, I wrote a book when I was like 19 and my dad read one page and handed it back and told me point blank "there's no reason for me to look at this. Any feedback would be pointless. Learn the fundamentals and come back to me." It took that man five years to read anything I wrote. He also told me I shouldn't keep trying to be a novelist because I didn't read enough novels. It took my WIFE telling me to stop writing prose and start writing screenplays before I could give up. And that was without anyone even encouraging me!! Can you, Jesus ****, my life would be a sad and dismal existence had I been encouraged *just a little* to continue writing prose. I would have died being mediocre and miserable in my own skin. THAT is the real danger of encouragement. I thank god every day no one encouraged me to follow my dreams. And that, is what they call *perspective*.

 

[Elton]

Brian,

Are you drowning in the 'Swamps of Sadness'? Do you believe in "Luck Dragons'?

Perhaps you should go back to hunting the purple buffalo? (my kids love that flick)

Kidding aside, I get your rant. I think Elton John was quoted as saying "God, give me 10 years without the internet!". ;-)

 

[n1c02]

i never look down on ANYONE who tries... that is what I believe makes great writers, poets.... no its not always a gift.. its tought, learned, honed... and come back with a better draft.. but with people saying naw you suck, move on... that leave no room for improvement.. I totally disagree.. and remember.. the person saying "you suck" its only an opinion.. period.... no differant than one man say that horror/thriller sucks.... ok so they stop making it based on that.. what do we have left.. something to please a few... i know im reaching but i hope you get my point.. to each his own and with hopes learns to their own abilities. and then and only then can THEY make a decision whether it is still right for them to pursue.

 

[Brian_Rice]

Brian, Are you drowning in the 'Swamps of Sadness'? Do you believe in "Luck Dragons'?If not, I will go back to hunting the purple buffalo. (my kids love that flick)Kidding aside, I get your rant. I think Elton John was quoted as saying "God, give me 10 years without the internet!". ;-)

True that. I love what the Internet does for indies, but for ****'s sake. People like Zak and Kholi are literally going through the exact same process of filming and crowd funding and possibly even distributing that people who are making films on a handy cam of their ten year old sister playing a thirty-six year old drug smuggler who just developed super powers. It's not the clogging (that Zak referenced) that's bothering me so much as the legitimacy and shared space. We are without filters, which is amazing for getting a line directly to the person you want to sell your product to, but it's also made Kim Kardashian of equal importance to Martin Scorsese. If Kevin Smith writes something in the comments of a filmmaking blog, his comment is of no more perceived value than is the kid with the little sister all over again. I love it all and I hate it all but what I'm not confused on is the encouragement. Saying the truth is not trolling. Saying negative things not associated with a given subject is trolling. We must stop the encouraging, and we must stop accepting trying as doing. We won't. Of course we wont. I rant, we agree or disagree, doesn't matter. But if even one person stops encouraging, the world will be a better place. I should have Tshirts made.

 

[Brian_Rice]

i never look down on ANYONE who tries... that is what I believe makes great writers, poets.... no its not always a gift.. its tought, learned, honed... and come back with a better draft.. but with people saying naw you suck, move on... that leave no room for improvement.. I totally disagree.. and remember.. the person saying "you suck" its only an opinion.. period.... no differant than one man say that horror/thriller sucks.... ok so they stop making it based on that.. what do we have left.. something to please a few... i know im reaching but i hope you get my point.. to each his own and with hopes learns to their own abilities. and then and only then can THEY make a decision whether it is still right for them to pursue.

This is incorrect. I broke up with an ex girlfriend because of this. Also she was annoying. I told her that xfiles was a good show. She said it was not. I said of course it was. It was well written, well produced and competently acted. She said it wasn't a good show. I then explained to her that something can be good while your opinion (see there?) says that you don't like it. But your opinion of whether or not you like something has no bearing on whether or not something is good, well made or executed. To this day she still cannot grasp this very basic concept. So I like to **** with her about it when I'm bored on Facebook. You see the difference between honest opinion and truth? Completely different matters. I've read every single resident evil novel based in the games. They're terrible. And I love them. See?

 

[Rick Burnett]

But at the very least you do agree that *trying* does not actually matter, right? It doesn't mean you've accomplished anything or that you should in any way continue your plight. See sometimes people try at something they shouldn't. They then get encouraged to keep trying, which encourages more trying. Not gonna lie, I was told I sucked at everything as a child. lol No joke, I wrote a book when I was like 19 and my dad read one page and handed it back and told me point blank "there's no reason for me to look at this. Any feedback would be pointless. Learn the fundamentals and come back to me." It took that man five years to read anything I wrote. He also told me I shouldn't keep trying to be a novelist because I didn't read enough novels. It took my WIFE telling me to stop writing prose and start writing screenplays before I could give up. And that was without anyone even encouraging me!! Can you, Jesus poo poo, my life would be a sad and dismal existence had I been encouraged *just a little* to continue writing prose. I would have died being mediocre and miserable in my own skin. THAT is the real danger of encouragement. I thank god every day no one encouraged me to follow my dreams. And that, is what they call *perspective*.

I completely disagree. When I see people having a hard time doing something, trying their hardest but not getting it, I just think about myself when I was 14 and someone let me borrow an electric guitar. It made no sense to me. I couldn't even hold a chord on it. I tried my hardest to understand it, but it didn't make any sense at all. If I followed your advice, I'd have never touched the guitar again. But I didn't. At 19 I bought a bass, and learned it decently enough. Then I bought a guitar again and by continuing to try and get better, I actually did. In fact, I've done enough music now that I've done a remix that landed on the Billboard Top 100 dance charts, I think peaking around 29 I believe.

Funny you should mention writing a novel as well. I wrote one about 9 years ago. Then another 7 years ago. My dad actually read both of them. He (and I) knew they weren't professional level, but the difference between the first one and the second one was night and day. The point is, trying is about practicing the art. I've started another book, and I can tell, it's MUCH further toward a professionally written piece than my last one. Is it there? Probably not, but I'm not done with my journey in novel writing.

The *real* issue to me is someone who cannot detect their material isn't good. But, that's a different problem. I've known and worked with plenty of musicians and cinematographers that just didn't know when something was not in tune, or, framed very poorly. At this point, it wasn't for trying, because they just didn't see it or hear it. Can they learn to see and hear these things? Absolutely. That's the part about learning a trade that takes many years. There is A LOT of failures, and I have hard drives full of them, for all the successes I made.

That said, the biggest problem with giving advice is knowing when something IS crap, or, you just don't get it. There are MANY MANY people I know that HATE dubstep music. Think it's the worst thing ever. But, when I went to a local Skrillex show (most popular dubstep artist) to see the energy and size of the crowd, it was amazing. So, he has millions of fans. Yet, on MANY music forums, they'd tell him his music is crap, no doubt.

It's all about being constructive and positive. When people ask me to help them, I try to approach it in a way that is honest, but kind. Being an artist isn't easy, and taking criticism isn't easy either. Not when you've spent hours and hours trying to perfect something and you still haven't got it right. The thing is, it's easy to knock someones work and be an asshole about it. But, trying to be nice, it takes a little more work. I don't mind putting in that extra work because when I am having trouble, and people do the same for me, I really appreciate it. I'm not perfect and will ALWAYS have more to learn.

 

[ian dart]

if you are not making a living out of this business then it is just a hobby.

to quote roger deakins "everyone has a pencil but there is only one william shakespeare"

 

[n1c02]

Well put Rick....