Should DVXUSER start a production company?

[Chamber005]

It's cool pulling my leg and that, but I still think everyone who has responded has missed my point entirely. What in the universe is so wrong with wanting to learn the business of film from someone who is already doing it? The "gain" IS in the experience. I feel like people have forgotten the importance of experience, networking, getting your feet wet in the business that you yourself are looking to engage with.

I cannot believe that somehow it's more "credible" to work creatively with someone, but to do the exact same thing in a strictly business-oriented manner is somehow "fluff". This, to me, speaks directly to the problem most creative people have. They're so busy being creative and collaberating creatively and pondering creative matters that they forget that none of it matters if they haven't engineered an audience to see what it is they've created.

I don't think anything I've said here is fluff. As I've said, *I'm* going to do it and I'm going to be successful in learning how to effectively network, promote, and god-willing distribute a film. I see no reason that I need do it alone; I think there are probably a lot of guys and gals here who would gain so much from sharing this experience with me. Do they understand how important the experience would be to their future? Maybe not. But that's what I'm trying to get across in this forum -- the importance of the experience and that whoever comes with me would have someone supporting them and learning with them as we come into our own, networking all the way, gaining a vast bit of experience.

There's no bad here, only learning, taking action -- all good things. Positive things.

 

[lawriejaffa]

Im gonna try and help!

What in the universe is so wrong with wanting to learn the business of film from someone who is already doing it?

Here... I suggest you stop setting up these straw man arguments. What you are suggesting is a plan of 'business' by a specific set of means and criteria. It has nothing to do with the argument of whether anyone wants to 'learn' from someone who knows something more... jeez who wouldnt... its not the point - not remotely the same thing. To make referrals like this makes you look like you don't know what the heck your talking about.

I cannot believe that somehow it's more "credible" to work creatively with someone, but to do the exact same thing in a strictly business-oriented manner is somehow "fluff".

This is rhetoric, fluff... it is the manner of speech i said was fluff. I did not say its more credible to work creatively with someone than to work on a strict business manner. However, in the creative industries, creativity and business are combined anyway... It's credible to present a detailed and realistic businesss plan that rewards participation, time and effort for talented contributers if its about 'business' but don't think its just about business jeez. Who'd choose to get into indepdent film if it was about the money... theres far easier ways to make it. I'd like to clarify at this point, i am a Producer.

As I've said, *I'm* going to do it and I'm going to be successful in learning how to effectively network, promote, and god-willing distribute a film.

Great when you've done that perhaps you can cure Cancer and aid our fighting forces against the evil's of terrorism and MacDonalds Vanilla shakes.

I see no reason that I need do it alone; I think there are probably a lot of guys and gals here who would gain so much from sharing this experience with me.

I'm sure there are many many guys and gals who would love to share that experience. Consider forming a cooperative / art / film volantary group or society, give it a constitution detailing its ideas and principles and seek contribution/donations in whatever legal manner relevant to your country. But this is hardly a business plan. In essence, talking of this as if its 'business' is a joke. But having a group that one can learn from, so that they can conduct themselves in the film business either with skills to sell or products to make 'eventually' as individuals or as a group that evolves into an actual business - then great. But its not business reality to portray a group with no organised body, to produce a film as an actual enterprise worthy of consideration in the financial/business sense.

creative and collaberating creatively and pondering creative matters that they forget that none of it matters if they haven't engineered an audience to see what it is they've created.

Can you even remotely substantiate that? For example, who on this forum is missing the $$$ gravy train by pondering around in the artistic miasma. Heres an enlightening thought, it may well be that those creatives who are more concerned for profit beyond there means - actually dedicate themselves more towards those creative industry elements (Such as careers in the creative industries, jobs dealing with investment, producing - but not always producing, and others.) While those who seem strangely agnostic and somewhat pondering in there creative worlds, are in fact content, to make ends meet doing what they love.

 

[Chamber005]

Man, everything you just said has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with taking actual action. You're talking about structuring and creating business plans and a bunch of other useless stuff people do who aren't actually out there pounding the pavement and making sales.

Maybe you're mixing my position on this. I'm talking about marketing and promoting and potentially forming an alliance with other people who want to market and promote as well. I don't need a business plan because I'm not trying to start a business -- I'm trying to help an already existing business. I'm talking about taking action, plain and simple. Any "planning" regarding the implementation of said planning would be worked out as needed. What you're talking about is the opposite of action. You don't form a business to then start working, you create customers, clients, a following and then create a business out of necessity (unless specific legalities apply, which none do here as I'm not talking about gathering investors).

You're giving me advice on something other than what I've been talking about here.

And I disagree that the marketing, promotion, booking and distribution of a film has anything whatsoever to do with the film's creative process.

Obviously YOU would not like to join me in the production, marketing, promotion and booking of a film. That's fine. The people who do NOT want to join me in learning about the business aspects of filmmaking need not raise their hand (in objection or otherwise).

I mean, lol, you're telling me how I should construct and create a business and/or a proposal when I never once said I was looking to do either. I've stated quite plainly what I'm going to do. I'm simply wondering if anyone else would like to accompany me. That's it. I am already a successful business person. I feel confident in myself creatively. This is a completely different matter. This is specifically about endorsing and helping to produce/promote an already established director's work and the lessons and experience and networks that will be viable therein.

As it pertains to this "call to arms" I am doing everything exactly as I see fit, neither from an ill-informed or at all "fluffy" position. I am not creating a business or a company, looking for doners or investors. I'm talking about a group of like-minded people taking action. If there isn't a like-minded person I come into contact with here, that's not going to devastate me. But if I don't explain to my creative brethern my personal position then I've done nothing to inspire change in my life or anyone else's life who might hold a similar passion to my own.

Again, no plans, no road maps, just raw, unfettered action -- the same way I've always been successful in all aspects of my personal and professional life.

I don't see why you, a person who is not interested in any way in doing with me what I'm talking about, has been so consistently against my position from the start. I'll succeed in doing what I'm saying I'll do. I know that. You telling me I should do it a different way doesn't make any sense in that I'm not pleading my case to you, I'm speaking to the people who are like me and want to do exactly what I'm talking about doing here in this forum.

I think the word is "like minded".

Motivated, eager to learn, strong willed. That's who I want on my team. Everyone else can continue doing whatever it is they're happily and successfully doing.

 

[lawriejaffa]

You're talking about structuring and creating business plans and a bunch of other useless stuff people do who aren't actually out there pounding the pavement and making sales.

I do 'pound the pavement and make sales', i work as a producer primarily raising $$$ for projects. I don't do it with a kind of macho rubbish like this either. It's done through planning and viability.

Funnily enough what you are suggesting seems to change to bend around criticism, first its a grand enterprise all about business, the next its just about experience. Inconsistent. Your so determined to maintain a kind of macho positive intepretation of your 'idea' based on buzzwords and self-motivational phrases, that you quite plainly are uninterested in the facts.

You also seem to be more interested in pursuing rhetoric than coming back with facts. You are the one selling this, and as a producer i can tell you, its not done by any kind of performance.

I'd suggest you toddle off and yes - create a business plan, or plan (if that doesnt hurt your eyes so much) with a clear cut manifesto/constitution of how such an 'organisation' would work.

For someone that is so new to all this as you say, your making wide assumptions about how wrong i am. I actually own a business, a production company started from the ground up, i work commercially developing and selling film projects. I even manage to do it without sounding like a mono-rail salesman.

Bar some absurd statement from you hehe, im going to leave this thread for other gents to contribute. But id consider the response you've had so far...

 

[Chris_Keaton]

I don't really care how it's done I just want my stuff produced, well.


For this to work DVXUser dude or dudes or dudettes would have to start the process, grab a director, and grab a script, and make a film.

I think what you are talking about happens all the time. You basically want to crew on a film lead my more experienced users. You may even look for help and backing. Raising your understanding of the whole process along the way. This is happening all the time, make some connections and get to work. :cheesy:

 

[Chamber005]

I do 'pound the pavement and make sales', i work as a producer primarily raising $$$ for projects. I don't do it with a kind of macho rubbish like this either. It's done through planning and viability.

Funnily enough what you are suggesting seems to change to bend around criticism, first its a grand enterprise all about business, the next its just about experience. Inconsistent. Your so determined to maintain a kind of macho positive intepretation of your 'idea' based on buzzwords and self-motivational phrases, that you quite plainly are uninterested in the facts.

You also seem to be more interested in pursuing rhetoric than coming back with facts. You are the one selling this, and as a producer i can tell you, its not done by any kind of performance.

I'd suggest you toddle off and yes - create a business plan, or plan (if that doesnt hurt your eyes so much) with a clear cut manifesto/constitution of how such an 'organisation' would work.

For someone that is so new to all this as you say, your making wide assumptions about how wrong i am. I actually own a business, a production company started from the ground up, i work commercially developing and selling film projects. I even manage to do it without sounding like a mono-rail salesman.

Bar some absurd statement from you hehe, im going to leave this thread for other gents to contribute. But id consider the response you've had so far...

lol. Okay, the only inconsistent aspect of my original thought is that I didn't fully grasp the level of legalities that come with trying to raise money to fund (someone else's) motion picture. But that speaks to nothing regarding the consistency of my point.

You've been going out of your way to stand next to me and wag your finger repeating again and again how I'm going about this all wrong and that what I should be doing is what you're doing when I have no desire right now to do what it is you're doing. I want to take a different path and, I'm sorry to say, but I think my trajectory makes much more (business) sense than what you're advising me to do in my current position. It doesn't mean either of us are wrong, it's just that we have opposing ideas as to how to accomplish our goals, which is fine. All athletes train differently for the same sport.

For instance, if my mother, an accomplished violinist, took the approach you're suggesting of setting up all these various business plans and corporate structures prior to ENGAGING herself in the business of playing music and earning a following, she wouldn't own the largest chain of music schools in the south suburbs of Chicago.

My woman works for university with financial graduate students. Her entire job is to place these elite individuals into corporate structures with starting salaries of no less than 100K. The first thing she insists and imposes on them is to start working immediately -- FOR FREE. If you compare those graduate students in finance (and I'm sure this would cross fields) who have done interships, volunteered their time for free against those who decided their time is too valuable to do anything for "free", it's no contest who gets the higher paying job (or even who gets a job AT ALL).

My position regards real world business. I'm simply applying what I know of business and what I've further learned from small business owners, CEOs and the couple of mentions here to the business of filmmaking.

Business is business. If you want to succeed in business the path that I've learned is pretty clear. Applied to filmmaking it would go as follows:

1) Start filming your own stuff now on a ZERO BUDGET. Learn and perfect your craft. While learning, start using what you're filming to build a fan base. This is why I created my webseries and built a website around it. It's a great way to learn and I already have over 270 fans on facebook for the show just after the first few months. A few years from now when I'm ready to progress, I'll have a built in audience for my project.

2) Intern with no boss, no direction, just gut, balls and a motivation to succeed. Intern and work for free until your ears bleed. Intern and DONATE to the project you're interning for to make sure you have a VESTED interest. Learn how to promote, how to sell a movie, how to book a film in REAL WORLD activities on something that you've put YOUR OWN money into. This is what business school (what ANY school or program) can't teach you. This is what will make you succeed in business -- DOING business. Learn how you YOURSELF can obtain interns and where to find them once you have something of your own worth producing.

3) Repeat step 2 while continuing step 1.

4) Start your own production company.

5) Go out and raise money for your own project via friends, family and business associates using your now proven track record of having associate produced and having created a fan following.

6) Produce and film your first project.

7) Use all of the networks, business strategies, fan base, etc that you've garnered in steps 1-3.

For me, this is a 5 year goal. Success of any kind doesn't happen overnight. If you want to be "discovered" have fun with that. I choose to control my own destiny.

THIS is the way business is done. THIS is the way to be successful in any business. I'm on step 2. You're talking about step 4. Unfortunately MOST people jump to step 4 and that's why they end up confused and bewildered and waiting around for some studio to save them.

Heck, following these steps you don't even NEED a distributor once your picture is done. And, at the very least, you'll be much more confident when setting your terms and conditions if some big studio or distributor does come down from on high to greet you.

This is the path *I* am taking. Others are free to join me. That's what this thread is about. It's not about comparing strategies or bouncing around ideas. The path is already set, the action has already been implemented. The only questions left are where, when and how -- not why or why not.

So, for me, once the project is selected it will be really simple start -- just business cards and fliers and social networking sites while starting to investigate how in the Chicago area I can sell and/or book local venues and showings, even if that showing is in a single household. Whatever I have to do to make the project I choose a success in my city, I'm going to do. Because only by making someone else's project a success (and then doing it again) will I have learned enough to do the same with my own projects.

I don't know how much more clear I can be on this. Please, no more ridiculing my path and what may be the path others choose to take with me. The path is set. We can discuss marketing ideas, directors, whatever, but the way to GET US THERE is what's being proposed. If you don't like the proposition you are 100% free to not be a part of it. I'm totally supportive and love hearing ways others are creating their own unique paths to success so long as they aren't berating my own path in the process.

I wish success for all those who deserve it!

My path may be completely wrong in the eyes of many of you, but you cannot KNOW that I'm wrong, you can only speculate -- and your speculation isn't really serving anyone but yourself.

So please, let us have opposing ideas and value them equally because like all good ideas they're only going to be good to the people who share the same idea.

Yup!

 

[Chamber005]

I don't really care how it's done I just want my stuff produced, well.


For this to work DVXUser dude or dudes or dudettes would have to start the process, grab a director, and grab a script, and make a film.

I think what you are talking about happens all the time. You basically want to crew on a film lead my more experienced users. You may even look for help and backing. Raising your understanding of the whole process along the way. This is happening all the time, make some connections and get to work. :cheesy:

And again, I think my original notion was probably too pie in the sky -- thinking that everyone would want to come together as a community to build something. I just don't think the vision, the bigger picture is there for people, especially those who aren't engaged in real world business (not just the business of film) everyday.

But that's fine. The alternate route was to find something that's already being produced (or has been produced) and jump on that in whatever way possible. It would be in a more marketing/promotional/distributionary aspect, but no less full of fun things to learn and grown on.

 

[mvetanen]

Business is business. If you want to succeed in business the path that I've learned is pretty clear. Applied to filmmaking it would go as follows:

1) Start filming your own stuff now on a ZERO BUDGET. Learn and perfect your craft. While learning, start using what you're filming to build a fan base. This is why I created my webseries and built a website around it. It's a great way to learn and I already have over 270 fans on facebook for the show just after the first few months. A few years from now when I'm ready to progress, I'll have a built in audience for my project.

2) Intern with no boss, no direction, just gut, balls and a motivation to succeed. Intern and work for free until your ears bleed. Intern and DONATE to the project you're interning for to make sure you have a VESTED interest. Learn how to promote, how to sell a movie, how to book a film in REAL WORLD activities on something that you've put YOUR OWN money into. This is what business school (what ANY school or program) can't teach you. This is what will make you succeed in business -- DOING business. Learn how you YOURSELF can obtain interns and where to find them once you have something of your own worth producing.

3) Repeat step 2 while continuing step 1.

4) Start your own production company.

5) Go out and raise money for your own project via friends, family and business associates using your now proven track record of having associate produced and having created a fan following.

6) Produce and film your first project.

7) Use all of the networks, business strategies, fan base, etc that you've garnered in steps 1-3.

There is nothing wrong with your plan, I know several people who are doing exactly what you presented. It is a sort of "On the Job Training" and a lot of trial and error as they figure things out. Those that spearhead the projects fund them out of their own pockets. Also, these groups are made up of local people who have mutual degrees of filmmaking experience and respect for each other. I doubt they let a newbie just show up and start directing, though they might let the newbie help with the gripping!

A lot of "pie in the sky" over optimistic thinking newbies tend to think they will make a film and then fling it at the festivals (sundance & cannes), and with all the new connections and admirers of their film they will secure funding for a feature film. THIS NEVER HAPPENS!

Most local filmmakers can funds-raise ten or fifteen thousand for their projects to secure some good actors and rent the gear they need. Their films are fun and interesting and the local film festivals are happy to have them. They self distribute and use the money they make from the films to invest in more gear or in to the next film. The hopes would be to one day attract a deep pocketed individual who would like to make a film with them. A few films come to my mind where that has happened and I was even on the set a few weeks ago running steadycam with a small production where a local celebrity asked my filmmakeng friends to produce with them.

However, the path above is NOT A COMPANY and there is no paychecks or profit share for the cast and crew. What I have described is a "hobby", just like the guy who likes to build furniture in his garage or the ladies who like to can pickles in their kitchen. Sure, they will go to the local fairs and show/sell what they have but by no means is it their main source of income or a business. Could it ever be? I know a guy who took his wifes home made pickles and turned it in to a business, though they invested nearly 80K to get it going! A filmmaker who puts 80K in a film is going to have something that is way above the ten and twenty thousand dollar armature films.

Our local guru, Kelley Baker AKA Angry Filmmaker ( http://www.angryfilmmaker.com ) has like 4 features he made and survives off his work. However, he goes to all the festivals and sets up a booth where he sells his films, his Production DVD's, his books and his workshops. His films are not No-budget films, and with all the work he puts in to them they come to about 90K each. Another filmmaker who comes to mind is Werner Herzog who makes lots of films for under 50K, however ask him one day how he can make his films for so little...his answer may surprise you.

 

[lawriejaffa]

mvetanen +1

Chamber05,

For instance, if my mother, an accomplished violinist, took the approach you're suggesting of setting up all these various business plans and corporate structures prior to ENGAGING herself in the business of playing music and earning a following, she wouldn't own the largest chain of music schools in the south suburbs of Chicago.

Groan... Did you start this thread by suggesting whether you think its a good idea to try and learn the craft of making films before producing them and setting up a production company? No...

Imagine what we could accomplish if we all came together here, across the nation! I know I can put together a few hundred bucks for the cause. Just being a PART of a feature film that goes from beginning to sale would be well worth the price of admission IMO. Most of us would never in our lifetimes see that happen without considerable help.

This... in your own words, was the mantra you were suggesting. This isn't a debate whereby you convince folk of your idea by setting up straw men arguments or delightful past experiences.

Just be practical. Anything concerning money is going to require an organisational body, even a community group has a constitution. Listen to mvetanen he's giving you some good advice.

 

[capitalP]

for $500 Count me in. But you would need to get at least 200 people to go in, or at $1000 100 people, if the budget is less than $100,000 then count me out. But if you can get two hundred people count me in. So far you have me and Hudson, 198 more to go lol.

But with that much money involved, I know you stressed this is not a business entity and so on, you would still need someone to be in charge of the finances and so on, like budgeting etc... but let's get the 198 people first and we'll figure out the rest. I think right now that is your biggest task is to get the people, the rest of the headaches will come after that and figure it out as you go along rogar-BigGrin(DBG)

Speaking of budget, did you ever figure out how much you would be willing to make this movie for? My personal opinion is not less than $100,000 but you may have had something else in opinion. I'm curious to here your thoughts on the budget of this film. Or where you just going with the intentions to see how many people you could get aboard and budget that way? But I think it would be better if we went with a big budget.

 

[SparkyZa]

Sounds like a project for Kickstarter!
http://www.kickstarter.com/

 

[Chamber005]

There is nothing wrong with your plan, I know several people who are doing exactly what you presented. It is a sort of "On the Job Training" and a lot of trial and error as they figure things out. Those that spearhead the projects fund them out of their own pockets. Also, these groups are made up of local people who have mutual degrees of film making exoeriance and respect for each other. I doubt they let a newbie just show up and start directing, though they might let the newbie help with the gripping!

A lot of "pie in the sky" over optimistic thinking newbies tend to think they will make a film and then fling it at the festivals (sundance & cannes), and with all the new connections and admirers of their film they will secure funding for a feature film. THIS NEVER HAPPENS!

Most local filmmakers can funds raise ten or fifteen thousand for their projects to secure some good actors and rent the gear they need. Their films are fun and interesting and the local film festivals are happy to have them. They self distribute and use the money they make from the films to invest in more gear or in to the next film. The hopes would be to one day attract a deep pocketed individual who would like to make a film wit them. A few films come to my mind where that has happened and I was even on the set a few weeks ago running steadycam with a small production where a local celebrity asked my filmmakeng friends to produce with them.

However, the path above is NOT A COMPANY and there is no paychecks or profit share for the cast and crew. What I have described is a "hobby", just like the guy who likes to build furniture in his garage or the ladies who like to can pickles in their kitchen. Sure, they will go to the local fairs and show/sell what they have but by no means is it their main source of income. Could it be? I know a guy who took his wifes home made pickles and turned it in to a business, though they invested nearly 80K to get it going! A filmmaker who puts 80K in a film is going to have something that is way above the ten and twenty thousand dollar films.

Our local guru, Kelley Baker AKA Angry Filmmaker ( http://www.angryfilmmaker.com ) has like 4 features he made and lives off his work. However, he goes to all the festivals and sets up a booth where he sells his films, his Production DVD's, his books and his workshops. His films are not No-budget films, and with all the work he puts in to them they come to about 90K each. Another filmmaker who comes to mind is Werner Herzog who makes lots of films for under 50K, however ask him one day how he can make his films for so little...his answer may surprise you.

And also I'm just stating the thing pertinent to my "unity pitch" here. There are several other things I'm doing on a personal and professional level that go beyond the seven things listed.

My filmmaking business goals regard someday owning my own production company, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with my creative goals. Again I think you're mixing the two aspirations. Regarding this thread (and what is have evolved into) I am not looking to in any way create a production in any other terms than in a strictly business-oriented aspect. If someone else had similar (but not an identical path to my own) and wanted to join me while they actually get on set and help out, that would be an individual option. Personally I'm learning the craft of filmmaking on a decidedly different course. I believe in keeping business and artistry separate.

For instance when I eventually go to sell my first film, I won't be the only one selling it, I'll have people who do that for a living, people who have trained to sell and who have produced films. The production company will work as an entity in which all aspects of the business transpire, but in the end what matters is making good and saleable films. This education in business will only serve to help me understand and thus hire (or have intern) the professionals who can then move me onto the next step.

I've known a few chefs with no business sense who've opened restaurants that then fail. But the one chef I know who understood every aspect of business the restauranture has to engage in was successful because he knew who to hire and for what purpose and he knew the business almost as good as the persons he hired. But in the end, he just cooks. That's all he (really) does.

Just because I'm talking about "god willing getting the film into distribution" doesn't mean I have any real desire to see that happen for my own future projects. Personally I'm extremely skeptical of distributors and large studios and have very little interest in ever working with them unless the terms were (probably) outrageous. I'm not in filmmaking to make money. I have money and I succeed evert single day as an artist. I want to become the studio and have the distributors asking to work with me and my studio's projects. But we're talking decades of intense, focused work for something like that.

Right now I'm interested in doing two things: Getting hands-on experience in filmmaking and getting hands-on experience in the business of filmmaking. I have very little desire for the two to ever meet as I feel that would detract from what it is I'm trying to achieve. If I think about BUSINESS and SALEABILITY while I'm writing, then I've accomplished nothing as a writer or filmmaker. If I regard my CREATIVE SENSIBILITIES while engaging in business, just, EPIC FAIL there man.

This thread has become primarily about reaching out to anyone else who might be interested in also learning about the BUSINESS of filmmaking with me, getting their feet wet NOW, etc. If someone wanted to blend their business education with their creative education (though I personally think it's a problematic solution), they would still be welcome to come with me in a strictly business educational capacity as we find, market, promote and sell, sell, sell a film.

At this point it's pretty obvious that the CREATION of said film isn't going to be applicable on this forum. And as I've said from the beginning, I have absolutely no interest in helping someone else to create anything. That's a different matter entirely. I was just posing that as an option as most people aren't able to delegate themselves to just either Business or Creative. Most people blend the two, hence typically ending up with a muddied down result (or, education and understanding of implementation).

If I was the husband and wife team you explained who makes furniture, I personally would not be both furniture maker and business owner unless I first had a deep clientelle in place, a vast specific knowledge on how to run a FURNITURE store, financial backing from some other resource than my own funds, a network of professionals surrounding me who knew more about the furniture business than I do (which would be quite a bit), and a secure plan as to how and why my furniture store would be profitable and in what geographical market.

*I* believe that the best way to form a sustainable business from having worked with successful business owners. And that's the kind of principles and learning strategy I'm talking about implementing here.

This is the FIRST STEP (or, second for me in terms of already having started the ball rolling on the audience aspect of my business journey). I feel like I hold the key to my success in this industry. If someone has a matching key (or one that nearly matches) my own, then they're welcome to be a part of it.

 

[filmman]

Talk to Nathyn

 

[lawriejaffa]

My filmmaking business goals regard someday owning my own production company, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with my creative goals.

Why? If you intend to work in the creative industries, then your creative goals have just about everything to do with the development of production infrastructure ie. a production company. The chaps here, myself who ALREADY have production companies, are 99% to a man, driven by the desire to fulfil our creative ambitions through business reality. But you see, the manifestation of creative ambition is in itself a business prospect.

The idea that you somehow qualify a busines idea you may have for an enterprise by religiously citing that it has nothing - oh nothing whatsoever to do with arty creative stuff is ludicrous. If you intend to make films with a production company, then creative product is your business.

I believe in keeping business and artistry separate.

Pfft good luck...

Getting hands-on experience in filmmaking and getting hands-on experience in the business of filmmaking.

This is such a generic term with very many different meanings. And no there is not 'one' meaning... There is no 'uber filmmaker' who learns every trade plus producing, plus marketing plus this and that. It's also no masterplan to absorb as much information as possible in associative fields as a low budget indy director & producer. Its just common sense to...

I feel like I hold the key to my success in this industry. If someone has a matching key (or one that nearly matches) my own, then they're welcome to be a part of it.

To be honest this and most of your tone has been markedly grandiose and delusional. Why do you speak in these buzz phrases?!!

It's almost obvious that you cannot have that much experience because people that are succesful as tradesman, (crew) producers or directors etc, are while idealistic (you have to be get a film made) are not inhumanely filled with such bizarre positivism bordering on self denial.

You hold the key to success? What? A self declared nooby to all this who wishes to learn more?

I started a production company as a means of sustaining my livelihood while learning the technical and creative skills necessary to produce decent films, be it corporate, commercial or creative. I saw that as an alternative - and a scary one not bound necessarily for automatic success... than to others who worked jobs and shot movies on weekends.

As a result ive actually been quite succesful, winning business award for our region last year, and nominated this year, and the odd modest festival prize (regional to online fests) for the odd short film.

But in no way did i ever enter any field of business, or any team of experienced individuals, and be so presumptious of my own success, knowledge of the industry, or float such grandiose ideas with no established credibility or qualification to do so.

You sound very much like a self-delusional mono-rail salesman. I don't want you to.

When i suggested constituting a body to define the rules of an organisation - you discared the idea as that of creating a company or corporate entity. It's not. Even the boy scouts have a constitution governing the legality of 5 cents donations.

Folk cannot respect the reality or credibility of a spouting salesman unless he's willing to get dirty with details, and realism. All this bluff and bluster is just noise, cheery naive noise.

-

Why not instead of just repeating this mantra of success. Go of, and develop an actual document detailing the plan, and what entitiy it could take, in order to deal with the funding involved, and other practicalities. So that there is actually something people can scrutinise, and comment on. Instead of just ballet dancing around criticism and spouting charming success stories of other business entrepeneuers...

 

[Chamber005]

Why? If you intend to work in the creative industries, then your creative goals have just about everything to do with the development of production infrastructure ie. a production company. The chaps here, myself who ALREADY have production companies, are 99% to a man, driven by the desire to fulfil our creative ambitions through business reality. But you see, the manifestation of creative ambition is in itself a business prospect.

The idea that you somehow qualify a busines idea you may have for an enterprise by religiously citing that it has nothing - oh nothing whatsoever to do with arty creative stuff is ludicrous. If you intend to make films with a production company, then creative product is your business.



Pfft good luck...


This is such a generic term with very many different meanings. And no there is not 'one' meaning... There is no 'uber filmmaker' who learns every trade plus producing, plus marketing plus this and that. It's also no masterplan to absorb as much information as possible in associative fields as a low budget indy director & producer. Its just common sense to...



To be honest this and most of your tone has been markedly grandiose and delusional. Why do you speak in these buzz phrases?!!

It's almost obvious that you cannot have that much experience because people that are succesful as tradesman, (crew) producers or directors etc, are while idealistic (you have to be get a film made) are not inhumanely filled with such bizarre positivism bordering on self denial.

You hold the key to success? What? A self declared nooby to all this who wishes to learn more?

I started a production company as a means of sustaining my livelihood while learning the technical and creative skills necessary to produce decent films, be it corporate, commercial or creative. I saw that as an alternative - and a scary one not bound necessarily for automatic success... than to others who worked jobs and shot movies on weekends.

As a result ive actually been quite succesful, winning business award for our region last year, and nominated this year, and the odd modest festival prize (regional to online fests) for the odd short film.

But in no way did i ever enter any field of business, or any team of experienced individuals, and be so presumptious of my own success, knowledge of the industry, or float such grandiose ideas with no established credibility or qualification to do so.

You sound very much like a self-delusional mono-rail salesman. I don't want you to.

When i suggested constituting a body to define the rules of an organisation - you discared the idea as that of creating a company or corporate entity. It's not. Even the boy scouts have a constitution governing the legality of 5 cents donations.

Folk cannot respect the reality or credibility of a spouting salesman unless he's willing to get dirty with details, and realism. All this bluff and bluster is just noise, cheery naive noise.

-

Why not instead of just repeating this mantra of success. Go of, and develop an actual document detailing the plan, and what entitiy it could take, in order to deal with the funding involved, and other practicalities. So that there is actually something people can scrutinise, and comment on. Instead of just ballet dancing around criticism and spouting charming success stories of other business entrepeneuers...

But haven't we already established that some massive gathering of funds is not going to happen here (or probably anywhere else online)? I started this thread with the general sentiment of us all coming together, pooling our funds (whatever they may amount to), and after securing all the funds the people involved all voting on a director and polling for a screenplay. Those who would want to work with the director could do so (if geographically possible) and those who would want to be more focused on the business aspects of the film (gathering an audience, bookings, promotions, marketing, etc) could take part in that aspect of the process.

I have two separate threads going on this so I'm not sure if I addressed this here or not, but the director in question would already have a formed production company (as you keep stressing), they would already themselves be a producer or have an executive producer in place. We all involved would be the FREE extras in the marketing department and crew, but we'd have some kind of a vested interest (hence the 500 bucks or whatever) to maintain our own drive and disciplines to see the film be a success.

All that's happened here is people attacking or mocking my position and my want to engage in and learn in this business. And what's worse is that most of you are giving me advice that does not pertain whatsoever to what it is I've been talking about.

I want to learn how to make a cheeseburger. I want to experience making a cheeseburger and handing it to the customer. I want to hand out coupons for people to come and try the cheeseburgers I'm making. I do not, nor is this a call to anyone who is right now interested in running a McDonalds. Period.

So many of you keep saying "well you don't know this and don't understand that". That's my entire point in this. So many people in my position don't know this and don't understand that and have no need to know or understand it until they are at a point where they need to know and understand it.

This is the basic coffee bean of a notion. I gave to everyone here some of my PERSONAL objectives, but those are mine and have no place being scrutinized by anyone as they're all things that haven't even HAPPENED yet.

We're not talking about whether or not it's a good idea to jump off a cliff together, I'm talking about whether or not it's a good idea to build a car together. I'm not talking about whether the car would be street legal or to who what profits go or securitzing this or that. I'm saying, "Hey, why don't all of us who know jack squat about making a car make a car with someone who's currently doing it?" Let's pick out a cheap design and say, "Hey, let's build this." Or, better still, maybe the guy is already building his car but is having trouble keeping his motivation and energy up -- and he's certainly not thrilled about the prospect of marketing and promoting his car nationwide nor does he have the cash to do so. Let's get behind that person and propell one of our own, getting an awesome education along the way!

Everyone needs to stop turning this into something ugly and everyone has no reason to attack or mock my current position or my future objectives. I am confident in my path. No amount of berating it is going to send me kicking my heels with my head down to do it another way (e.g. your way). You are, each of you, free to take your own path. That is not what's in question here. I simply put the question out there as to who might be in a similar position to myself wanting to do what I am looking to do.

If the final answer is a resounding NO then I will progress to looking for a film here myself by a director who would like me to help them promote, market and gather an audience for them here in Chicago.

There's nothing ignorant here, nothing evil or despicable. I am personally on my own journey toward an education in the business of film, taking the path that I feel is most sensible based not on the suggestions of filmmakers on the internet, but on personal experience and the work I've shared with other successful business people.

Again, if you don't want to come with me, it's completely fine and I respect that. No one here is wrong in what they are doing. I may not agree with what you're doing, but in no way can I accurately and factually say what you are doing is wrong for you -- it just isn't what *I'm* doing.

So again, comments are welcome, concerns are even appreciated, but mocking and belittling my intentions is completely unnecessary.

And btw there's no buzzwords about me. I stated plainly that *I* believe that *I* hold the key to *my* success. You cannot know if I'm incorrect or delusional on the matter, you can only state what has worked for you in your own business ventures which you are welcome to do free from ridicule or mocking on my part.

 

[Chamber005]

Talk to Nathyn

Yeah, you mentioned him in the other thread on this. I haven't really moved too far into actually looking for a director (or film) other than a couple PMs. My only concern with working with a director in my own city is that it might urge me to blur the line between what I want to learn in the business of filmmaking and how I want to learn as a filmmaker. It would take considerable added discipline on my part to remove myself from all creative aspects of the project altogether if it's happening right in my back yard.

Also, a local person will already have started to make some of the connections they need to make. A person in Portland or New York or LA needs people in Chicago -- a guy in Chicago needs people in Portland, New York or LA, see?

In the capacity of learning the craft of filmmaking I might give Nathyn a shout out sometime, but I'm just wary about reaching out to a fellow Chicagoan in regards to film business. That leads to meetings, planning, objectives, discussions -- all the stuff that has nothing to do with actually taking action. There's a reason I work from home. If I actually walked into my company downtown I would immediately be subject to people wanting to talk to me about some random sporting event or even worse -- having to attend a company meeting or brunch or god knows what else. I don't have to go to my company or deal with any sort of management because those were my terms when I signed on with them. I told them that they were absolutely never allowed to email or call me for any reason other than a specific client issue.

I'm not ruling out a Chicago filmmaker by any means. But the last thing I would ever stand for is having to meet someone face to face and have them thinking I'm working for them. As it pertains to business, I'm not looking to work for anyone, I'm looking to work for a film and only the film.

Additionally I already have a filmmaker friend here in Chicago who has been pretty successful so far (just doing shorts) and who works at Columbia who is going to be moving out to California. He hasn't done a feature yet, though, so there's nothing there for me to promote or market.

It's awesome to know some DVX people are in Chicago, though. Cool beans!

 

[Chamber005]

Sounds like a project for Kickstarter!
http://www.kickstarter.com/

This is more about funding, not necessarily getting an education in associate producing.

I have no desire to use any of my money or any of the persons' I know monies to fund anyone else's project beyond my own.

I spoke before about raising money for someone else via complete strangers but then found out that's illegal.

The 500 dollar (or whatever) expenditure was simply a way to have people start "investing" in the business of filmmaking, giving one of our own directors a leg up on (or a start point) for a production.

I'm not concerned with learning how to obtain funding. That, to me, is the easiest aspect of producing my own future works. The education I'm seeking has to do with film-specific promotion and marketing and the ability to secure a built-in audience. Funding follows "fame" (though I use the term loosely in this respect). Build the audience, create strong promotions and marketing schemes and the funding dollars come to you.

Having a decent flick probably doesn't hurt either.

 

[DecadenceFilms]

I like your energy and drive.

Lets be honest, a massive part of becoming a successful filmmaker is in making a lot of noise.

I'd be interested in hearing more of what you have to say. At the moment, I'm not completely sure what the "plan" is though.

The thread has see-sawed so much, I've lost sight of what it is you're actually proposing to do.

 

[Chamber005]

I like your energy and drive.

Lets be honest, a massive part of becoming a successful filmmaker is in making a lot of noise.

I'd be interested in hearing more of what you have to say. At the moment, I'm not completely sure what the "plan" is though.

The thread has see-sawed so much, I've lost sight of what it is you're actually proposing to do.

LOL Yeah, well it's probably been skewed pretty harshly from where it began.

In a nut shell I'm saying I have 500 bucks and a few extra marketing bucks and TONS of enthusiasm (to donate) and live in Chicago and want to get behind someone's film to market and promote.

There is the IDEA that there could be some sort of alliance where a few of us got together with the same amount of money and all decided to give it to and get behind a director and script that we all agree on (and, of course, that director and screenplay cannot be associated with any of us in any manner. No playing favorites, no inching friends to the front of the pack).

For this latter IDEA the people interested in actually working as a crew member on site for the production could work that out with the director, while all of us only interested in learning about marketing and promoting films, etc can work in our cities doing just that.

Raising funds was something I was only willing to do for others using strangers, so that's out of the question due to the legalities involved. Obviously I'm not going to use my own future investor's funds -- those are for me!

Personally I think the middle ground is probably the best place for this to take off (especially since so few might be involved). That means if it was just a gang of us interested in the business side, that's easy, we find a movie that's already been produced and is finished (or close to being finished) and we all rush to the producer/director's aid in helping him get the word out about his/her flick.

If the group was composed of a blend of people (those wanting hands-on experience and those wanting marketing experience), we'd find a project that's maybe 1/2 or 2/3rds of the way finished that could use the extra couple thousand and could certainly use the motivation of lots of us eager newbies.

Most director/producers will give what we're offering an associate producer credit -- and getting that is well worth the 500 bucks (or whatever) we'd each be tossing in (IMO).

I feel it is essential in the business of art to piggy back other artists, exchanging your motivation and enthusiasm for their initial inertia. If you help enough people along the way, not only are you garnering an awesome education and hopefully a strong network of like-minded individuals, you're also building a frame of reference that regards your ability either as a crew member or a marketing person in the business.

It's kind of like all those job postings you see for high level jobs in finance. They always want you to have 2 years experience plus Masters, right? And everyone is always like "How can I have two years experience if I'm just out of college looking for a job?" The smart people went out and DID get their two years of on the job experience WHILE in graduate school because they interned. Thus, voila, they DID have the 2 years necessary to get the job "right out of college".

I feel that weary filmmakers need people like us as much as we newbies need to help and surround ourselves with people who have real world experience and invaluable wisdom regarding this business. I don't know who ends up getting the better part of the deal (probably why the cash upfront, right? Just in case) but I think one is really incomplete without the other.

Everyone has mentioned things about securitizing the money and having to form this and that -- I'm not in any position to handle anything like that in this regard, so I'm assuming that if we picked an ongoing project (or a completed one) we'd simply ask the director/producer how they'd like to process the funds thereby taking us on as associate producers.

NUTSHELLED BABY!

 

[Chamber005]

for $500 Count me in. But you would need to get at least 200 people to go in, or at $1000 100 people, if the budget is less than $100,000 then count me out. But if you can get two hundred people count me in. So far you have me and Hudson, 198 more to go lol.

But with that much money involved, I know you stressed this is not a business entity and so on, you would still need someone to be in charge of the finances and so on, like budgeting etc... but let's get the 198 people first and we'll figure out the rest. I think right now that is your biggest task is to get the people, the rest of the headaches will come after that and figure it out as you go along rogar-BigGrin(DBG)

Speaking of budget, did you ever figure out how much you would be willing to make this movie for? My personal opinion is not less than $100,000 but you may have had something else in opinion. I'm curious to here your thoughts on the budget of this film. Or where you just going with the intentions to see how many people you could get aboard and budget that way? But I think it would be better if we went with a big budget.

After a year on these boards 85K seems to be the high end and 20K the low end to make a saleable feature. If we jumped on a project that was, say, 1/2 way through production right now and got 10 or 20 people here together that would be an additional $5,000-$10,000 for the film in question, plus buckets of free marketing from all of us involved.

I think it's resonable to count yourself in on a 40K budget, especially with the kinds of uber-low budget stuff people can pull off here.

Heck even if there were FOUR of us -- that's 2K, turning a 40K budget into a 42K budget which would include the aforementioned "national" marketing.

Personally I don't care what the budget is, I care about getting behind a director/producer who has proven he/she can finish what he/she starts and puts out a solid product consistently. If we can find someone here who has even sold one narrative film into distribution (or who is truly on the cusp of doing so) and who is working in a decent budget range this time around, I am behind that person's film 110% if they'll have me.