Shooting RAW - Most economical camera?

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Vic5

Member
If one wanted to shoot raw video: 4:4:4 either internally or to an external recorder, which do you think would be the most economical alternative? Is Canon 5D Mark III with Magic Lantern Stable enough to be used? I want to avoid having a shoot, canning the footage and then going back to see several skipped frames.

Are there other inexpensive DSLRs or camcorders that can work well? Which is the cheapest option? I need footage that can work well with chroma key and color correction/grading. I looked at Sony F3. It has a Super 35 sensor and S-log (that seems to greatly help in post). Prices have plunged to $4K new or below $2K used. However, since it needs an expensive recorder and other paraphernalia I don't know how viable it would be. The whole kit would cost > $5K I think.

What about the Sony and Panasonic full frame cameras?

Is there any reliable and inexpensive way to get post-friendly RAW footage?
 
ML Raw on the 5D3 has been pretty reliable for me, as long as I'm using the right CF cards.

The BlackMagic Pocket Cinema Camera is more economical though.
 
QuickHitRecord said:
ML Raw on the 5D3 has been pretty reliable for me, as long as I'm using the right CF cards.

The BlackMagic Pocket Cinema Camera is more economical though.
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^--This--^

There are NO DSLR's that shoot RAW. Only the Canon's with Magic Lantern installed. And they'll ALL do it - but only the 5D and I think the 7D will record full 1080p RAW. The others have to be scaled down because the in-camera buffers are not big enough to move that much data to the cards. The 6D will record a size that is close to 1080p but not all the way. Still looks better than 1080p with the internal codec though.

Only Blackmagic cameras do RAW for under $4,000.
 
Cheap raw? - Black magic.

The first 2.5 version is cheap now, the 4k version is nice etc.

The BMC cameras with cheap SSD present a really tidy package.

S
 
Looks to me OP is confusing raw with uncompressed video. 4:4:4 is a term that applies to debayered and YUV converted video, not to raw video.
Also, for chroma key work higher resolution will result in cleaner keys, so 4K will be better than a lower resolution camera, even if the target is HD.
 
cpc said:
Looks to me OP is confusing raw with uncompressed video. 4:4:4 is a term that applies to debayered and YUV converted video, not to raw video.
Also, for chroma key work higher resolution will result in cleaner keys, so 4K will be better than a lower resolution camera, even if the target is HD.
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Do you think it would be a good idea to get a 4K camcorder like the Sony AX33 or Sony AX100, record in 4K and then transcode to a lower resolution. There are theories about downrezing 4K to 1080 and getting 4:4:4 footage? My main concern is getting a good key and getting post-friendly footage for keying, color correction and grading. Thanks.

I do need to read more about raw video and codecs I think!

@morgan_moore @QuickHitRecord @DPStewart

I'm looking into Black Magic. It just seems to also require a lot of other gear to be put to use. Will read about its post production requirements. Thanks.
 
There's a used BMD Cinema Camera (body only) in eBay for $720. Lots of bids though. There are also various shooting packages offered with used CC's.
 
Vic5 said:
I'm looking into Black Magic. It just seems to also require a lot of other gear to be put to use. Will read about its post production requirements. Thanks.
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Both canon and BMC need additions..

sound recorder? check
ND filters? check
Ultrawide lens to compensate for small recording area? check
 
I would think the 4K resolution alone would help with keying but if color is your main priority then, yes, the Canon ML or Blackmagic Design cameras are the way to go. The F3 wouldn't be too bad as I assume the HDMI output would work with something as little as the Atomos Ninja Star? But then again, that's not RAW either way. I have my 5D Mark II with ML and I thought about using RAW for a project recently but, having never used the RAW feature before, I tried it, filmed a little, and what killed it for me was the pronounced moire and aliasing. I know the 5D Mark II has its own issues and isn't capable of the full 1080P RAW you get with the 5D Mark III and 7D but I could see that an investment in the Mosaic Engineering Anti-alias filter would be a mandatory purchase if I wanted to use RAW with my camera and for $400 for the filter, I'd just as soon purchase a cheap 4K camera like the Panasonic G7 or simply get a Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera.
 
And G7 is very cheap right now. $600 w/14-42 mm F3.5/5.6. GX8 is currently on sale for $1,000 body only.

Speaking of cheap - Samsung NX500 is $500 w/ kit lens, NX1 is $1,100 body only or $2,200 with 16/50 mm F2.0/2.8.
 
Zack Birlew said:
I tried it, filmed a little, and what killed it for me was the pronounced moire and aliasing. I know the 5D Mark II has its own issues and isn't capable of the full 1080P RAW you get with the 5D Mark III and 7D but I could see that an investment in the Mosaic Engineering Anti-alias filter would be a mandatory
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Everything that I see about 5III RAW says it doesn't have the aliasing and moire that the 5DII has.

5DIII was on sale for $1,800 US refurbished from Canon USA with 1 year warranty a few weeks ago.

I purchased one, then returned it. I decided I wasn't up to the workflow requirements during the winter. I only have my laptop when in Florida, desktop is at home here in Michigan.

I have a Panasonic G7 that I am very happy with for 4k video. Although I do both stills and video, and the M 4/3 is a little noisy for best quality stills. I am always looking for a "single camera" solution. Not there yet for my needs, I still use DSLRS for events and wildlife stills. APS-C and full frame.

Good luck!
 
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Vic5 said:
Do you think it would be a good idea to get a 4K camcorder like the Sony AX33 or Sony AX100, record in 4K and then transcode to a lower resolution. There are theories about downrezing 4K to 1080 and getting 4:4:4 footage? My main concern is getting a good key and getting post-friendly footage for keying, color correction and grading. Thanks.
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Well, the problem with keying from images shot on an HD camera (without sufficient oversampling and without 3x sensors) is that you can't have pixel perfect keys, even if you get totally uncompressed signal out of the camera. Say, you have a greenscreen shot. Your image simply won't have a true green component in every pixel. Half the pixels will get interpolated green. Look up what a Bayer matrix is for an illustration.

I'd expect something like the Blackmagic Production 4K camera would be best suited for keying since you can get full quality UltraHD raw images from it. Depending on your quality requirements an AX33/AX100 might be ok. For coloring and grading you can't beat raw. But there is, of course, a lot more involved in camera choice.

Downscaling a 4K subsampled image will indeed get you a 4:4:4 2K image but the actual quality and tonal precision depends a lot on in-camera processing and compression.
 
I heard that the Samsung NX1 is kicking butt on a lot of cameras and was told that it outperforms 5D M3 and 5D M3 with Magic Lantern?

NX1 has a back side illuminated sensor (the first out), shoots at 120 fps @ 1080, shoot 24 fps at 4K, UHD. Being able to film through the eyepiece (mirrorless) lets you shoot in bright light without a Z-finder or hooded monitor. 4k internal and since they use h.265 it can record to type 10 CF card. The iPhone uses h.265. HANDBRAKE, a free app, converts h.265 to h.264 no problem.

Any thoughts on this info?
 
New_Zealand said:
I heard that the Samsung NX1 is kicking butt on a lot of cameras and was told that it outperforms 5D M3 and 5D M3 with Magic Lantern?

NX1 has a back side illuminated sensor (the first out), shoots at 120 fps @ 1080, shoot 24 fps at 4K, UHD. Being able to film through the eyepiece (mirrorless) lets you shoot in bright light without a Z-finder or hooded monitor. 4k internal and since they use h.265 it can record to type 10 CF card. The iPhone uses h.265. HANDBRAKE, a free app, converts h.265 to h.264 no problem.

Any thoughts on this info?
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It's good info. It's all true.

But the NX1 is dead. Samsung is in fact killing it and ceasing ALL DSLR camera production.

It's still a really great camera - but it's lifeline is now terminated. They seem built pretty well so I guess there's no reason you couldn't still get 4 or 5 years out of it.
 
New_Zealand said:
The source that I got that info from says that in Feb they have a new one coming out? I wonder how true that is?
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Chances are high that Samsung is quitting the photo-video industry altogether. They've already pulled out of Germany, the Netherlands and Norway. And those are the most lucrative European markets, indicating that the company is in the wind-down mode.
 
DLD said:
Chances are high that Samsung is quitting the photo-video industry altogether. They've already pulled out of Germany, the Netherlands and Norway. And those are the most lucrative European markets, indicating that the company is in the wind-down mode.
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If you're a kid making your first zombie flick, don't get the NX1 - Samsung is likely done with cameras or heading that way.

If you do this stuff for a living and need a "pretty" camera (DSLR) in the sub $2k range - I don't know that you can beat the NX1. It's years ahead of Canon and Nikon. The way it performs with their pro-level zooms is amazing, and you can stick about any glass on it. Buy it with no regrets - Samsung and others will service it for years. If a $1100 camera lasts 2 years in a business setup, you basically stole the damn thing. It will be years before something comes out that does everything the NX1 does anyway, far as stills and video use go, and likely for video at that price. Hell, I have quarters where I spend that much on consumables!!

As far as keying cameras go - Well, Raw isn't a great as rez, (unless you're talking super-compressed 4k, like from a phone) and a prores camera will pull the same key as far as a human can discern unless it's a really tough shot. But if you have the media, I could see shooting raw keys, converting everything to prores (batch 'em while you sleep) and getting to work, and mark any tough keys for redoing with raw files.

Camera - This assumes you have lighting covered, in order of desirability (and I've left Sony out as I'm not familiar with their lineup) and based on my dislike for sensors smaller than APS-C/Super 35 - so big sensors and interchangeable lenses:

BMC ursa Mini in 4k or 4.6 - that could be the last camera you buy for years and years - really seems like a do-it-all beast - about $8-$10k + when kitted out with VF, media, batteries.

BMC production cam - need glass, audio recorder, battery rig at the least. Really would prefer a VF with this, too. $4k or so in the real world.

Samsung NX1 - need audio recorder and glass.

I no longer want to shoot keys at less than 4K since 4K is so available now - and I agree with earlier posters that resolution trumps color depth for good keys. But if I had to shoot 1080 or 2k? I'd get a ProRes or Raw camera:

BM Cinema camera. Really need to add a Speedbooster, but you can find used combos for $2k. Need better batteries and at least 2 SSDs. And probably a decent viewfinder, the screen is iffy. I feel like you're looking at $3k even buying used unless you have all the ancillary gear.

BM Pocket - Same as above - that sensor is TINY and needs a Speedbooster unless you want to get stuck only using specialized wides on it or playing the "vintage super 16 eBay crap shoot". But I wouldn't choose a vintage character lens for keying...

Beyond that,we have the NX500, the Sony RX MKii or whatever - fixed lens, 4K cameras with tiny sensors. The Sony is said to be amazing with its Zeiss lens, but with the tiny sensor it's about the equivalent of F7 - F8 wide open. So if it you could live with a "keying only" camera it might do; people are really digging the footage.
 
Michael Carter said:
...As far as keying cameras go - Well, Raw isn't a great as rez,
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Can you elaborate on this? Do you mean, taking 4K footage from a camera and downrezing it to 2K or 1080p is a better idea than taking raw footage from the 5D Mark III or from the BMPCC? If this is true, would 4K footage from the Sony AX33 or Sony AX100 dowrezed to 2K or 1080p give footage good enough for chroma key work and color correction/grading?

Thanks.
 
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You might want to consider the Digital Bolex if you are seriously interested in high quality uncompressed raw video. It shoots full 2k DCI format, not just 1080p HD like the BMPCC. Out of the box it includes built in SSD media and a 3 hour internal battery. You need to add a lens to shoot. An external EVF or on camera monitor is useful. Nothing in its price range beats it for color depth or seamless image quality free of most common digital artifacts. But like any raw camera it takes a commitment to the learning curve to get the best out of it. It will chromakey better than any camera shooting compressed 4:2:0 8 bit video regardless of resolution. It is far more robust and rugged than the BMPCC. It needs far less in the way of accessories and support than any of the BM cameras.
Some will denigrate the S16 format size as too small, but I disagree. It is an eminently practical cinematic format that has been used for many Oscar winning features shot on film and digital cameas in recent years. It is available now with M4/3 mount as well as C-mount or PL mount and the mounts are interchangeable. A Sigma 18-35 zoom in Nikon mount and a BMPCC speed booster gives excellent IQ for wide to portrait focal length use with high speed.
You would need a PC or Mac that is capable of efficiently running Davinci Resolve 12 (free) to cover grading and editing needs.
 
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