FS7: Shooting Custom Slog3 can we see a Look on a monitor out of camera?

Doug Jensen said:
I don't recall anyone saying that is a no-no, and especially not me. Maybe I'm being overly sensitive but I want to make sure that my point of view is not being misconstrued. Just to be clear, there is nothing at all wrong with using S-LOG in Custom mode. S-LOG can be an excellent gamma choice in Cine EI or Custom.
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Not every post of mine is aimed at you Doug :)

But it's just something that crops up here periodically.

I was just making the point that there are many ways to hang a picture, even if conventional wisdom says the most straightforward is to bang a nail in the wall.
 
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morgan_moore said:
Don Id like to ask you to stop suggesting I read.

And show me some tests. Set up a scene that meters at 8000 ISO. Shoot it at 8000 and shoot it at 2000, amp the second shot in post and show me the results, if the second is cleaner.. you win.

S
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Ok your just not going to listen.. tell you what.. shoot a light office.. as you said, at 8000.. Iso.. then shoot it at 2000 Iso.. which will have the more noise.. adding gain is not changing your DR.. it amplifies a signal.. exactly as a radio would.. turn up the volume really high.. load music and a lot of hiss.. but the signal is the SAME.. thats what you are doing to the picture as it were.. this is not a thick neg.. man where did you get this idea from.. ok if you are going to shoot an office scene that you could shoot 2000 ISO.. but you shoot it at 8000 for a better picture.. please don't tell the director.. so at least you will get another days work.. and prepare for an arse chewing from post.. pride becomes before ....
 
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Doug Jensen said:
I don't recall anyone saying that is a no-no, and especially not me. Maybe I'm being overly sensitive but I want to make sure that my point of view is not being misconstrued. Just to be clear, there is nothing at all wrong with using S-LOG in Custom mode. S-LOG can be an excellent gamma choice in Cine EI or Custom.
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Good!

Now just remember this thread is about MONITORING LUTs when shooting SLOG mode, not BAKING IN LOOKS, and hence why Sam bought a DP502 to have a better way to monitor on-set and hence why Mitch recommends the Odyssey 7Q+ which can also be used for monitoring LUT purposes, and lastly hence why I am suggesting that similar to the Sony PMW-F3 that Sony provides the ability to add a 1D or 3D LUT SOLELY for the purpose of MONITORING (again this means NOT baking) on the FS7, F5 and F55 cameras when shooing slog2 or slog3 gamma in Custom mode.

If you don't want it, leave it off.
 
starcentral said:
Good!

Now just remember this thread is about MONITORING LUTs when shooting SLOG mode, not BAKING IN LOOKS,
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And the point I am trying to make, but it keeps getting lost in the clutter is this: IF YOU ARE NOT BAKING IN A LOOK -- DO NOT USE THE CUSTOM MODE. That is what CINE EI is for -- even if it doesn't allow NR or custom white balances. If you're shooting and grading properly, those things do not matter for all but the most extreme, unusual, shooting scenarios.

If you want to bake-in a look or only have to do very minor grading: CUSTOM MODE
If you want to shoot neutral and grade in post: CINE EI

It is that simple.
 
starcentral said:
. . . hence why Mitch recommends the Odyssey 7Q+ which can also be used for monitoring LUT purposes.
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I'm not so sure Mitch understood what the OP was asking about when he wrote that answer. Mitch will have to clarify, but if he did, then it's one of the rare instances when I would disagree with his advice.
 
haha.. ok thanks grammar boy.. how we just need.. "Its ok to wrong boy" on the team.. and we will be cooking with gas..
 
To help maybe get this thread back on topic and the OP's initial question...Totally agree with Mitch on this - that the camera can be "annoying limited" in this way. Playback on set anyone if not burning in LUT? But I was wondering the exact same thing as Doug... can you clarify about using a LUT with the Ody if shooting in Custom / Slog....
 
I am getting more "on set" work with my F55 and 95% of the time shooting slog since RAW is overkill and no one wants to deal with it in post. So two big problems with the FS7/F5/F55 shooting slog if not using external LUT boxes is when you shoot in S&Q mode you can't have MLUTs enabled, and as you had mentioned no MLUTs for playback. This is outside of any debate about having LUTs for custom vs cineEI mode or NR, WB, etc..

For S&Q shots I've sometimes enabled the MLUT momentarily so on-set departments can get a chance to see it and then rolled with it turned off, and sometimes if I feel it won't ruin the footage I've even just rolled with the LUT left on - so baked in choosing something generic like 709(800). Sometimes I've accidentally left it on when I shouldn't have. Again, high pressure environments can cause you to do many things without thinking or getting the time to think so for me these camera's need a further streamlining on function and logic. (I've gone as far as to ask Sony for an SDK for them so that advanced users can "create their own camera" mode)

I know Nate Weaver left the Sony fan club because of exactly the scenario I've described above despite his plea to Sony from the first day the F's were released so I'm carrying that torch in his spirit and honour. (sounds like a line from Gladiator film) I think Sony is listening and planning something big for version 7 firmware but unfortunately that will only apply to the F5/F55, not the FS7.

So for now, on track with Chris's original post you either add an external device which gives you LUT capability (not the end of the world if you can afford to budget for it) or you shoot in CineEI mode and use the LUT capability within the camera itself given some of its limitations I've highlighted.
 
starcentral said:
So for now, on track with Chris's original post you either add an external device which gives you LUT capability (not the end of the world if you can afford to budget for it) or you shoot in CineEI mode and use the LUT capability within the camera itself given some of its limitations I've highlighted.
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And he's have to have a different LUT for every different WB setting...
 
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Liam Hall said:
And he's have to have a different LUT for every different WB setting...
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Did Sony provide three different 3D LUTs for each of the fixed white balance presets available in CineEI mode, or infinite 3D LUTs for sgamut in custom mode?

To my knowledge Sony has only ever provided one 3D LUT per look they've released (LC709, LC709A, slog2-709 and Cine+709) per slog gamma.
 
I was always under the impression that LUTs and WB was why Sony limited CineEI to the 3 pre-sets as they were established to work with their official LUTs and not the infinite combinations of custom WB.
 
My understanding is that a 3D LUT can account for any WB differences without major problems, again for example there is only one Sony provided post LC709A 3D LUT for sgamut3.cine.

I also tend to shoot some stuff in the middle WB setting (~ 4400k) regardless of the lights I'm using and later in post had no issues applying LUTS to it. You fix, tweak or pick your WB in post and all is good.

I do recall some issue with I think sgamut LUTs but right now I really can't recall the details. Maybe CameraManBen can pipe up.
 
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Sony doesn't help things by adding to the confusion half the time.

I have found CineEI to be the simplest and easiest way for me to use the camera for what I do and stick with that. Shooting CineEI is dead simple. Shooting STD rec709 broadcast stuff (handicapping the camera) is dead simple. Its the middle ground shooting WYSIWYG stuff with max DR possible but the least post work that is a frustrating exercise of compromises for me. I'm fortunate that I don't have to do that often. I honestly shoot most doc style content in CineEI, SLog3, Sgamut3.cine, XAVC-I and it turns out great. A company like VICE which does a lot of doc R&G style stuff requests these exact settings as company policy. Its nice that it works with my preferred method of working. Although I have to have a monitor lut on for R&G to pick up any weird lighting colour casts and nip it in the bud or adjust accordingly. So far the 3 WB pre-sets have worked out great for me.
 
Ok Dennis - I'm a bit confused again..
Why would you want a monitor Lut if shooting in custom mode? Aren't you using Paint / Matrix menus to achieve the look you want instead?
 
Hi Mark,

No I'm not talking about burning in a look to the actual recording on the cards by using a LUT or paint / matrix. I'm trying to stick with the thread topic more to do with MONITORING a slog gamma image.

So let's say you want to record in native slog2 or slog3 gamma to your media cards but you're working on a set where there are other departments present, possibly even clients and/or their respective agencies, and you want them to see the image so it is not flat and dull looking. You'd want to put a LUT on top of the the image they are viewing but not record it with the LUT baked in.

Now sure there is CineEI mode for this but there are at least 5 things CineEI mode can't do that Custom mode can on the FS7. Those "things" can be debated to no end by people on the forums but the bottom line is no matter what people here debate and argue we all work in our own unique environments and set of circumstances so some of us constantly face these sets of trade-offs which is very limiting, frustrating, and causing some of us to jump ship and head to something like the Amira and dare I even say RED who is doing it right.
 
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