FS7: Shooting Custom Slog3 can we see a Look on a monitor out of camera?

Donny 123 said:
gain is a totally different thing..
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Indeed it is and that is my 'argument' that gain before compression works better than gain after compression. Of course 'better' is a variable word as adding gain may impact (needed or not needed) DR.

So everything goes in the pot; scene brightness, scene DR, post simplicity and you cook your own stew that works for your self and your clients.

It is great that one can make so many different stews with the same camera.

As for 'reading up' I prefer just to shoot a few tests.

S
 
Doug Jensen said:
Sam, why is this so hard for some poeple to understand? I will try one more time.

Yes, you can shoot S-LOG in Custom (I do it sometimes), but that gamma choice should be combined with other paint menu settings so that you get a WYSIWYG or very close to final image in the camera. That is the purpose of Custom. The image you are viewing and baking-in should be nearly a final image, so there is no need for a monitor LUT on top of that.

However, if you are using Custom, and your image is so bland and flat that you feel you need a monitor LUT -- then you should stop using Custom and use Cine EI instead. You'll have the MLUTs you desire, and you can grade a pristine signal in post to your heart's content.
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Are there not a bunch of people that want NR added to EI? Are you one of them?

I like slog3 custom and feel above 2000 it is more practical than Slog3EI

Partly because EI values are lost in the NLE (which leads to the DPs vision being lost) and partly because I feel that NR before compression is technically superior.

EI values are also lost on third party operator and directors monitors creatign confusion on set.

I don't like deviating far from published LUTs as that is way too technical for me..

S
 
well we should leave it at then.. but really you don't seem to have grasped the meaning of gain .. its just amplifying a signal..to shoot at 8000 .. unless you really need to to get the Alien landing is just nonsense Im afraid.. your on the right track to get a thicker neg.. but you need to do this with Cine EI.. also in camera NR can cause you problems too.. it is better in post be yes you do need to time/and or budget to do it.. I really advise you to read up about Cine EI.. it will change the way you shoot.. and you will much better results.. testing without some technical knowledge behind you is going to lead you down some dead ends .. a little knowledge is a dangerous thing..

Monitors /VF have LUTS applied when shooting EI.. you r dir and any suits wandering around video village will be fine.. as will your vision.. in post.. you only need to shoot 1000 Iso to save 6db of noise.. only 1 spot over.. most editors/graders can deal with that..
 
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I agree LUTS should an option in custom mode, only because of slog.

They were available on previous Sony cameras as well (F35, F3) in form of 1D LUTS but I'd take that over nothing any day over having to fork out thousands to buy external LUT boxes or even renting them for multi-cam shoots.

The feature is there, so Sony should enable it.
 
No, I don't crave for NR in Cine EI mode, nor would I use it if the camera had it. I own the full version of Resolve so I can add NR in post if I choose to, but I think I have only done that maybe a handful of times in a couple of years. Personally, I do not find Cine EI noisy at all when handled properly in post. If noise is a problem, something is probably not right during the shoot or the workflow.
 
starcentral said:
I agree LUTS should an option in custom mode, only because of slog.

They were available on previous Sony cameras as well, in form of 1D LUTS but I'd take that over nothing any day, or having to fork out thousands for external LUT boxes or renting them on multi-cam shoots.
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What cameras were those?

And I doubt that the camera has the horsepower to do LUTs and Paint Menus at the same time.
 
Ben Scott said:
Can we rename this the 'everybody telling everybody else they are doing camera-ing wrong' thread?
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It doesn't have to be taken that way.. forums are more than just cosy back patting.. although nothing wrong with that either.. but people can also learn from being told they are doing something that is fundamentally wrong.. not just some person taste in LUTs.. I have learn many times from others telling me Im doing something wrong.. its not the end of the world .. its how we learn.. I don't think I have been rude to Sam.. or he to me.. but he obviously doesnt have a handle on gain.. or Cine EI.. Im trying to help him.. as others have helped me learn stuff.. thats what forums are for.. but certainly there is no room for rudeness I totally agree ..
 
Doug Jensen said:
What cameras were those?

And I doubt that the camera has the horsepower to do LUTs and Paint Menus at the same time.
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The F3 and F35.

Forgive me but you seem to be constantly fixated on why people shouldn't bake in LUTS when in custom mode, but when it comes to on-set monitoring it's absolutely necessary. Maybe it's fine not to have it if you work solo or as hobbyist but there are many uses for these cameras professionally where having it would be great.

If you don't need it, leave it off.
 
No offence taken. Id just like to see some 'evidence' - (images) - the evidence I present it is not perfect.. far from it.. but it is 100% better than no evidence provided by others.

'Donny' - random names also don't help gain cred.

I come from stills. Would you agree that shooting a nikon D3 at 3200 will 'outperform' setting it at 200 and pushing in post? If so why does this change for video.

Now cams like Red never had true gain, but IMO the FS7 does. Gain is a place where NikonCanonSony rip the indies (BMC Red Digibolox etc) apart is good gain circuitry IMO?

Consider Xavc compression which is super efficient, made by total geeks, slicing away data at every possible place without impacting on 'the visual experience' (as opposed to the ready for manipulation experience). Now visually we are less sensitive to darks so building the compression Id up the compression ratio in the shadows, and believe the Sony geeks do this , so the 'thin' neg is effectively a higher compression ratio so you are taking higher compressed data into the post pipe.. ergo gain before compression is better?

S
 
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starcentral said:
Forgive me but you seem to be constantly fixated on why people shouldn't bake in LUTS when in custom mode, but when it comes to on-set monitoring it's absolutely necessary.
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Constantly fixated? Please refresh my memory because I don't believe I have ever posted on the topic of using LUTs in Custom mode before yesterday. Not here and not at the Sony forum. So I don't know what you mean by constantly fixated.

I have said that MLUTs serve a purpose in Cine EI and I can totally understand why someone would choose to use them in that mode, but now I am saying that they have no business in Custom mode. People can do whatever they want, and wish for whatever they want, and post whatever they want, but for the benefit of other people reading threads such as this I feel an obligation to offer a counterpoint when I see crazy talk.
 
Donny 123 said:
It doesn't have to be taken that way.. forums are more than just cosy back patting.. although nothing wrong with that either.. but people can also learn from being told they are doing something that is fundamentally wrong.. not just some person taste in LUTs.. I have learn many times from others telling me Im doing something wrong.. its not the end of the world .. its how we learn.. I don't think I have been rude to Sam.. or he to me.. but he obviously doesnt have a handle on gain.. or Cine EI.. Im trying to help him.. as others have helped me learn stuff.. thats what forums are for.. but certainly there is no room for rudeness I totally agree ..
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To be honest I think your posts have made a fair few assumptions about someone who has put his work out there several times on these forums. Now for you to come in and say quite categorically that he doesn't have a technical knowledge and so on, as you did - well you should possibly not make such sweeping statements, and without knowing anything about you or or background it's hard to know whether to pay any attention to your opinions anyway. I might disagree with Sam or Doug or whomever all the time, but I take their opinions seriously because I've seen both their work and I know that like me, they've both been earning their living from pretty pictures for a while now.

Basically there is a a wide chasm of difference between saying you wouldn't shoot a certain way and telling other people that because they shoot a certain way they have no technical knowledge. That said, I do find Sam's methodology crazy at times :)
 
Well I don't think so TBH.. I have only been replying to Sams own quotes.. nothing I have assumed he thinks.. nothing to do with how I would shoot personally.. but to say you would shoot at 8000 Iso in stead of 2000 Iso.. to give you a better picture in just plain wrong technically .. nothing to do with personal taste .. or assumption.. its just empirically wrong.. and does show a real gap in tech knowledge on a fairly basic level.. Ive been called out on things in the past.. made real howlers.. but thats how you learn.. to just say i don't want to read but do my own tests in reply to help is a tad arrogant .. but i let that go.. no simple way to put it.. the dude needs to do some study .. should I just not point it out.. he,ll never learn.. he's going to lose work shooting like that.. and any professional.. I don't know if Sam is.. so sorry if Im wrong.. should know how to shoot in cine EI.. its the way to get the best out of the camera he bought.. even if you chose not to use it.. burn in a LUT.. shoot custom .. but a job will come at a higher level were they will want Slog /Cine EI.. Sam will need to know about LUTS and changing the EI in conjunction with using LUTS.. making a thick neg as he wants.. and that you have to read up about from others who know about it.. and then do your tests..
There is no personal intent.. its always a bit of an ego dent.. but thats how you learn ..
 
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Y'all are starting to take this a bit too personal.

For what it's worth, I generally agree with Doug's position. I see what Sam is saying and while I do not agree with his methodology, if the results work best for him then more power to him. I am not a fan of in-camera noise reduction as a panacea. In fact I would rather work to reduce noise issues in other ways, which is why the Odyssey now has Exposure Compensation LUTs for the FS7 so that one can OVER-expose with greater confidence and control. I don't know what you're shooting that you feel the need to have the noise reduction for 8000ISO in your back pocket, but frankly I don't want it even at 2000ISO.

But again, that's my preferences, and you can have yours.
 
Thats my point.. shooting 8000 Iso to get a "thick" neg to get rid of noise .. is totally the wrong way round.. 8000 Iso will give you a bucket full of noise .. and kill all your DR.. the way to do it is in Cine EI.. put your EI down.. use MLUTS over expose .. thick neg .. correct in post .. and no noise .. its simple..

I would suggest that shooting thick 8000 is however better than shooting thin 2000.

Sam sorry your wrong.. shooting 8000 ISO is not a thick neg .. you are just amplifying the hell out of the signal.. you would be a lot better in Iso 2000.. that is really basics of video SNR.. please just spend a day reading up on this ..
 
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Guess what... Different professionals use the camera in different ways.

Jason Wingrove is shooting KFC commercials in Custom mode with S-log gamma which people keep saying is a no-no but he's repeatedly getting good gigs and doing great work so I guess he's doing something right.

It's not in any way arrogant to say test before shooting a certain setting. It is 1000% the correct way to do something. If he does that and gets the result he wants, I guess it's not for us to say he is doing it wrong.

As I said, I would never in a million years shoot at 8,000ISO. ISO or gain is now something I don't think about when using the FS7 and instead I expose properly using the other tools available to me depending on the setting. However, I shoot very different things from Sam and usually in a very different style too. When I go to my mum's house for dinner I get frustrated watching her chop an onion because it takes her an eternity and she is in danger of cutting herself every other second. But she never does, and the final dinner tastes great. Who's to say she has no technical knowledge if it comes out great each time?
 
Don Id like to ask you to stop suggesting I read.

And show me some tests. Set up a scene that meters at 8000 ISO. Shoot it at 8000 and shoot it at 2000, amp the second shot in post and show me the results, if the second is cleaner.. you win.

S
 
Ben Scott said:
Jason Wingrove is shooting KFC commercials in Custom mode with S-log gamma which people keep saying is a no-no
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I don't recall anyone saying that is a no-no, and especially not me. Maybe I'm being overly sensitive but I want to make sure that my point of view is not being misconstrued. Just to be clear, there is nothing at all wrong with using S-LOG in Custom mode. S-LOG can be an excellent gamma choice in Cine EI or Custom.
 
Ben Scott said:
Jason Wingrove is shooting KFC commercials in Custom mode with S-log gamma which people keep saying is a no-no but he's repeatedly getting good gigs and doing great work so I guess he's doing something right.
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No doubt for the 'log look'. That's so last year...
 
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