FS7: Shooting Custom Slog3 can we see a Look on a monitor out of camera?

Oh absolutely. I love chatting to people who use similar tools to me in completely different ways. Never know what you're going to learn. :)

As a complete aside, the updated LUTs in the Odyssey 7Q are really really good now and is now a solid on set monitoring option.

If you are really bored Dropbox that clip and I'll test out Neat Video on it to see what can be achieved. Mostly today I have to play with my new dolly
 
The only time I use custom mode is in the dark, to take advantage of noise reduction. I tried Doug's method, using Doug's settings and it made my footage look like it was shot in 1983. Funny that...
 
Sorry Im not that bored and my Dbox is rammed. Its easy to do some tests. Turn the lights off or select F11 and some ND, shoot a few shots of a dark corner, play in post.

S
 
Sam.. why are you shooting at those high ISO levels.. 5000.. 10,000 ! no wonder you need NR.. :).. to shoot Slog in Cine EI.. you will need an experienced grader .. although Slog3. Cine might give you have a chance.. NR in post is way better as you can choose where you want it in the frame.. but yes you need the budget/time to do it..
If you shoot Cine EI and put your EI down a stop or so and then correct in post you will get rid of a lot of noise .. if you get your head around Cine EI /Slog I think you wouldn't use it in custom mode..
 
Im not shooting like that daily at all. Those images were taken in the process of me learning the limits of the camera by taking it beyond limits I would find acceptable.

I do, however, regularly use Custom at 4000 and consider it acceptable (in terms of docu/actuality but not 'slick corporate') to use 8000 Slog with a thick exposure. INTs can easily be 8000 unless you have time to light, or rather I suggest a thick exposed 8000Custom will produce a better result than thin EI in the same location.

S
 
Again each to their own, but unless it was undercover filming I wouldn't ever shoot anything at 8000 iso. Even on my A7s. Even if you're only lighting for exposure and not for stylised effect, a couple of lightsticks takes 20seconds to put up and can lift the ambient several stops.


EDIT: I've no idea why I am Dave Argument this morning. Apologies. Need more caffeine :)
 
Last edited:
The thing is people switch to 8000 when its dark - I question if shooting thick 8000 say in an office without added lighting might create better images than getting a thin 'negative' at 2000. Better images may also include enough DOF to hold focus.

Thin 'negs' are the killer not the selected ISO value,

S
 
sam.. sorry don't want be on your case.. but I think you are doing something very wrong.. I shoot with F5 ISO 2000.. as the FS7.. on doc,s sometimes.. and never have to go anything near 8000 .. you must be shooting in a coal mine with the lights off.. 2000 is already a high ISO.. compared to Alexa/Amira/Red.. or any ENG camera.. you are killing your DR going that far... to say nothing of noise floor.. Ive only used 4000 in custom for night ext.. have you ever shot Slog in Cine EI..
 
Donny 123 said:
Sam.. why are you shooting at those high ISO levels.. 5000.. 10,000 ! no wonder you need NR.. :).. to shoot Slog in Cine EI.. you will need an experienced grader .. although Slog3. Cine might give you have a chance.. NR in post is way better as you can choose where you want it in the frame.. but yes you need the budget/time to do it..
If you shoot Cine EI and put your EI down a stop or so and then correct in post you will get rid of a lot of noise .. if you get your head around Cine EI /Slog I think you wouldn't use it in custom mode..
Click to expand...

I rather doubt Sam makes a habit of piling in the gain and those images were testing output. But unless you're extraordinarily lucky there will come a time when gain has to be applied because there is no other alternative so there's no need for the cock sure smiley.

My philosophy would be to give the codec the cleanest possible image and that means turning off sharpening and doing noise removal in camera. If I was capturing externally to a better codec than XAVC I might then do the noise removal in post. It's a choice and not a indication of how "Pro" you are.

Thankfully Sony hasn't been so narrow minded as to rule out several legitimate workflows. I can easily imagine the scenario being onsite and showing rushes and a client spit coffee at the sight of some noisey CineEi SLog and not understanding that it's put right in post. In my youth I made the mistake of showing a client a rough cut despite warning them it was rough cut, well, never again did I make that mistake. Client expectations should be factored into the equation for the choice of shooting mode.

There's nothing difficult about CineEI in fact it's a perfectly reasonable choice but so too is shooting Slog in custom mode.
 
The days of showing clients rough cuts with temp sound and placeholder graphics seems to be over.

Notes accompanying edit:

Temporary sound - unmixed audio
Placeholder graphics
Ungraded

Notes from client

The sound is all over the place, the graphics looks awful and none of the colours match in the footage!


AGGHHH!
 
Nirv said:
I rather doubt Sam makes a habit of piling in the gain and those images were testing output. But unless you're extraordinarily lucky there will come a time when gain has to be applied because there is no other alternative so there's no need for the cock sure smiley.

My philosophy would be to give the codec the cleanest possible image and that means turning off sharpening and doing noise removal in camera. If I was capturing externally to a better codec than XAVC I might then do the noise removal in post. It's a choice and not a indication of how "Pro" you are.

Niv.. don't throw your toys out of the pram dude..

I question if shooting thick 8000 say in an office without added lighting might create better images than getting a thin 'negative' at 2000. Better images may also include enough DOF to hold focus.

From Sam himself.. really thats nuts to shoot an office at 8000 Iso instead of 2000 for a thick neg.. ?? its not film..not making a thick neg adding gain.. your just turning up the volume for no reason.. Sam you really need to read up about adding conventional gain to video.. you could shoot that at 1000 Iso in Cine EI and have a really nice video neg .. with zero noise.. your right about the thick neg .. but in video you do that with Slog in cine EI mode..
Click to expand...
 
I would just add that this isn't Sam's first rodeo, and while we might have differing philosophies around various shooting concepts, he knows his way around a camera and gets good results.
 
Last edited:
morgan_moore said:
I really only put my opinions (and ACTUAL IMAGES) into the thread to counter Dougs 'no luts in Custom to save them from themselves' quote which I feel is complete utter hokum.S
Click to expand...


I don't need to post any examples because I am not advocating Cine EI or Custom over the the other. So there is nothing to compare. What I am saying is that if you DO choose to shoot Custom, you'd be a fool to add a MLUT on top of that and monitor something other than what you are recording. That is why Sony does not allow it -- to save people from their own dumb decisions. Call it hokum if you will.
 
Sony do allow Slog as a gamma in custom mode, and IMO using a LUT will help evaluate how it will come out of post. If slog was not a gamma in custom mode then that would make sense. IMO

Any operator should do their tests with all settings, I suggest 8000 Custom Slog is worth considering.

S
 
Donny 123 said:
From Sam himself.. really thats nuts to shoot an office at 8000 Iso instead of 2000 for a thick neg.. ?? its not film..not making a thick neg adding gain.. your just turning up the volume for no reason.. Sam you really need to read up about adding conventional gain to video.. you could shoot that at 1000 Iso in Cine EI and have a really nice video neg .. with zero noise.. your right about the thick neg .. but in video you do that with Slog in cine EI mode..
Click to expand...

In EI 2000 you can only make a neg a certain thickness unless you add light or open iris (or increase angle) - so in situations where none of those are possible you must evaluate your options.
 
Sure I don't know his work at all.. but others will read this and think that adding gain is like a thick neg .. its simply incorrect and actually really bad practice.. your just adding a ton of noise for no good reason..he just needs to read up a bit.. that the whole reason for Cine EI .. its why its in high camera,s.. with Slog in Cine EI with a LUT.. you can manipulate the EI setting.. in exactly the same way you could with film.. while keeping the native ISO the same.. you are just shifting the grey level up or down.. then you can get a thick or thin digital neg.. to be corrected in post.. thats the only way to do it.. gain is a totally different thing..
 
morgan_moore said:
In EI 2000 you can only make a neg a certain thickness unless you add light or open iris (or increase angle) - so in situations where none of those are possible you must evaluate your options.
Click to expand...


But you are talking about doing it in a light office .. which could be shot at 2000.. in Cine EI you can get a thicker neg than 2000.. put it down to 1000.. "over expose" a stop .. print down.. 500 ISO if you want.. gain is not giving you a thicker neg..
 
If we're not in the film days any more can we all stop using the phrase 'thick neg'? It sounds dirty.

As far as I am concerned my FS7 is an EI2000 machine and I adjust everything else around that - whether it be lights, ND or lens aperture. Expose properly and you have no problems.
 
Sam, why is this so hard for some poeple to understand? I will try one more time.

Yes, you can shoot S-LOG in Custom (I do it sometimes), but that gamma choice should be combined with other paint menu settings so that you get a WYSIWYG or very close to final image in the camera. That is the purpose of Custom. The image you are viewing and baking-in should be nearly a final image, so there is no need for a monitor LUT on top of that.

However, if you are using Custom, and your image is so bland and flat that you feel you need a monitor LUT -- then you should stop using Custom and use Cine EI instead. You'll have the MLUTs you desire, and you can grade a pristine signal in post to your heart's content.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top