Shooting a feature film on Super 8...
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Super 8 is about 6mm x 4mm. That's about the same size as a 1/3" video camera.
Chip sizes do not equate to the measurements you might think they do; a 1/3" chip doesn't measure 1/3" in any dimension.
Chip sizes do not equate to the measurements you might think they do; a 1/3" chip doesn't measure 1/3" in any dimension.
David G. Smith
Steak Knife Member
Wow, I like your film. I am impressed with the sound sync you were able to get. I also want to give you props for tackling a pretty heavy subject. My hat is off to you.
I did notice that there was a significant amount of gate weave with the image. Have you done any trouble shooting with that to see if it was a camera issue or a transfer issue? Your notes on the YouTube page say that it was shot on the 64T stock. Have you projected the film and seen if the gate weave is there? That may not be the definitive test for that through since a lot of consumer projectors will have their own gate weave issues. I guess the only way to really see if the gate weave is a camera issue would be to look at the film frame by frame on a light box and see if the gate weave is there. What you would want to look for is differences in the frame line.
Yeah, I was a little disappointed in how much weave the film had. I've never did any research to try to discern what caused it. I would guess it was more of a cartridge issue than anything. The "bad" cartridge I had was shaky beyond use. That is when 16mm with registration would come in handy. Thanks for the feedback though!
David G. Smith
Steak Knife Member
Yeah, that is an issue with Super 8, the image registration is up to the quality of the film cartridge you use. I would think that the quality of film cartridges made by Kodak would be ok, but I would be suspect about the film from 3rd party labs (Re: Pro 8mm). Man if you want to shot film, go for regular 16mm. The cost of used cameras have fallen so much lately that you can pick up a good sync camera for about the cost of a prosumer HD cam, and, if you keep your shooting ratio down to a reasonable level, can come in close to the cost of shooting Super 8. Professional lab services for 16mm are still widely available, as is transfer services. The images you will get from 16mm will beat anything you can get from any video format (If done right, of course). Go back and re-read the books "Feature Filmmaking at Used Car Prices" (original edition) and "Rebel Without a Crew". Also get a copy of "El Mariachi" with Robert Rodriguez's "Ten Minute Film School". Then go out and do it.
Yeah, I had thought about trying to pick up a CP-16 and do some sync shooting with 16mm. The one big benefit I see in it is the 400' mags and potential to use short ends which can be wicked cheap. Being used to S8, even 16mm short ends are probably better than the 2:30 you get from a 50' roll of S8 @ 24fps.
Malcolm101
New member
Lakmir0 ......... Hope you don't mind me jumping in to congratulate you on your film. An excellent short story, well acted and generally well filmed and lit. The sort of short film that our club produced about 30 years ago.
I have not filmed for a very long time and only recently been sorting out all my old equipment to dispose of. It was top of the line in those days, Braun Nizo S800 camera, ideal with speeds of 18 - 24 and 54 frames and also ideal because of the pulse that was linked to the Tandberg 11-2 Reel to reel portable recorder for lip sync.
Thinks got a little more tricky on the last film we produced, a musical love story where we used twin cameras that were alternatively switched. It would have been our ultimate film, having won a local Midlands film competition against a dozen other clubs consecutively for the past 5 years. However ... ain't it always the same? ....... the sync was slightly out and although the editing took months of work, we lost the title but had a great review from the TV director who judged the entries. On the preceeding year he commented that he considered he was looking at a professional film - that was a 7 min drama with a surprise finish that nobody suspected.
That musical film used over 35 reels, so a lot on the cutting room floor. We all had a great time and will never forget the joy of the actors from a local theatre group who saw themselves on the 'silver screen' for the first time.
Great days to remember and I hope you have many more yourself
Good luck
Malcolm
Malcolm101
New member
Hi Barry,
You mention only one series of super 8 camera, but possibly forgot the Braun Nizo S800 that has Sync pulse and can sync the film perfectly with tape. I used this often about 30 years ago and coupled with the Farnell-tandberg sync system and Tandberg 11-2 reel to reel tape recorder, there were no problems at all.
With the camera in a suitable blimp, which I built and used many times, the recording does not pick up any camera noise at all. Editing posed no problem and I have one of these systems which I will be selling soon.
Hope you don't mind me mentioning it.
Malcolm
Barry_Green
Moderator
Right, "pilotone" and sync pulses... if the external recorder knows how to "resolve" the tone, you can do frame-accurate audio sync with that system, certainly.
David G. Smith
Steak Knife Member
When I was shooting a lot of Super 8, I used a Canon 1014 XLS, with a TFG sync pulse generator. The sync pulse generator took the on-off signal from the PC flash contact of the camera and generated a sync tone that was recorded to one track on a stereo recorder. The production sound was recorded to the other track. We would then dub the production dialouge to Super 8 fullcoat mag track using a Super 8 Sound fullcoat recorder. The sync tone was resolved by the fullcoat recorder to maintain the speed of the audio based on the camera speed. We edited sound and picture on a four gang editing bench.
I wouldn't know how to resolve audio into a modern NLE or audio DAW/editor using a sync pulse or "Pilotone" signal now. You should be able to get sync with a digital audio recorder and a crystal sync camera. I think that Pro8mm does some camera modifications and might be able to hook up a high end camera with crystal control. Of course they sell crystal controlled cameras. None of that would be cheap though. You might be able to try syncing wild tracks using time manipulation in a NLE or audio DAW/editor.... but I personally think that life is way too short to try and to get into that.
Malcolm101
New member
Hi David,
I'm not looking to become active again in making films, but was commenting on the pilot tone system I used many years ago.
I have been sorting out my old equipment and having found that Super 8 is still going strong in certain areas, intended to offer the lot for sale including a Braun Nizo S800, the Farnell-Tandberg pilot tone system complete with the Tandberg 11-2 reel to reel portable/mains tape recorder and if wanted a Phillips N4422 reel to reel tape recorder with Sprocket Master attachement that syncs with pulses, film sprockets and other reel to reel recorders to maintain sync.
It would be nice to think that the sysyem that was top of the range 30 years ago could still help the new filmakers on the path to making good sound films and to me the price is not so important.
Good luck with your film making.
Malcolm
David G. Smith
Steak Knife Member
Ok Malcolm, I may not have read all of the posts as close as I should have, I apologize. The system you have is a very high end Super 8 production outfit.... for about 30 years ago. I began using Super 8 about that long ago and what you have would, back then, make the, how do we say, make the "Manly bits" gain attention!
Unfortunately, with the changes in technology, I don't really think that your gear (besides the camera) would be of interest to young, aspiring filmmakers. The digital video/HD revolution offers gear, with much more functionality, for them.
That being said, I think that your gear is very important to preserve, if not for the monetarily valuable on the used gear market. but for it's rarity and unique functionality. Now, I keep up, on eBay and elsewhere , with used Super 8 equipment and the Braun Nizo S800 is a very desirable camera. I have seen them go for close to $500.00 on eBay. You may want to post this on that site. For the audio gear, while yes, you might be able to find a buyer on an auction site, I, personally think that that may a sad way to dispose of that gear. Because of the quality of the gear, and the rarity, I think that it should be housed in a central archive house, that could maintain it and keep at the ready to preserve films that were shot using that type of sync sound system. I would advocate that you see who archives Super 8mm films, preferably a non-profit or government entity, and offer them the audio gear you have. Now, you may be able to get some cash out of it, I would make sure that the agreement to receive the gear included a clause that mandated restoration of the gear to near new condition and a clause that it would be maintained in that state. I would hate to think that a Tandberg 11-2 and a Phillips N4422 would be left to rot in a closet. I also hate to think that there might be some footage shot on Super 8mm, using a pilot tone system, that could not be preserved because there is no audio resolving gear available.
Good luck with that.
Dave.
Malcolm101
New member
Hi Dave,
thanks for your comments and a good thought if I canot sel on the entire set up to new filmakers to get them stated, then I may well think about an historical fill charity.
My initial thoughts were that if a goup were interested, then I would probably only ask £500 for the lot in the hope that it would be of help and continue to be used. The equipment should all be in good working order and was all purchaed new by myself and used by me all be it with the club members. I would also throw in the editing and film gear still around and all instruction books are still with the equipment.
If a team were to get togeter they could have graet fun using it and starting at the bottom with a good pulse system before moving on to whatever is more appropriate these days.
Appreciate your comments and help,
Good luck
Malcolm