Shoot 1080, edit in 720

I

ikander

Well-known member
I'm gearing up to shoot my next short in March and I was considering shooting in 1080p and then editing on a 720p timeline. This would allow me to do simple dolly moves in post and give me some wiggle room to recomposite some shots, if necessary. Also, it would allow me to match the size of the inevitable Slow-Mo shots I'm gonna want to do.

Are there big disadvantages to doing things this way? Does scaling down hurt the image (especially when you do so in an NLE like Final Cut)?
 
Using your NLE to downscale is not a good idea. I always use VirtualDub with Lanczos algorithm for any scaling needs. Don't know what you would use on the Mac, but there must be something.
 
I do this all the time in FCP... and think its a good idea...

Some are going to argue that there is little improvement in 1080 over 720 anyways... camera shoots somewhere in the 800's
 
MadHMC150 said:
I do this all the time in FCP... and think its a good idea...

Some are going to argue that there is little improvement in 1080 over 720 anyways... camera shoots somewhere in the 800's
Click to expand...

Good point...I agree that the average person can't tell the difference...

I think I'm gonna do a few tests to see if I can tell a huge discrepancy in quality, but my gut says that I won't be able to.
 
MadHMC150 said:
I do this all the time in FCP... and think its a good idea...

Some are going to argue that there is little improvement in 1080 over 720 anyways... camera shoots somewhere in the 800's
Click to expand...

I do this as well. Haven't done any side by side tests, but I havn't seen any noticable problems. Let us know what your tests indicate, please! :)
 
I've done a couple of shoots where I've panned AND zoomed in on footage to create a small dolly effect, but there are limits to what you can achieve.

I've done my own tests between 1080/50i, 1080/24p, 720/50p and 720/25p. I would say the different between 720 and 1080 is real and can be seen on a reasonable sized monitor if you are looking for details. If you are talking about shooting someone in the distance then the biggest difference can be seen between interlaced and non interlaced footage rather than 1080 vs 720.

Also, the detail level and coring in the different modes can also reduce the amount of differences you will see in the details. When using a low-noise setting (e.g. reduced detail and increased coring) then the difference between 1080p and 720p is almost nil.

The other thing to realize is that while you have both the 720 and 1080 footage to compare, the client will not, so they see only what you gave them and don't usually question it.

When details are important I usually shoot 1080p. What happens in post after that is down to how it's being delivered.
 
ikander said:
Well if you keyframe your scale...then it's a dolly in/out.
Click to expand...

It would actually be more of a zoom in/out. You can't fake moving the position of the camera because if you were to move towards things you'd see further around them as you got closer. Know what I mean?
 
1080 to 720 really isn't much room to fake a zoom or pan.
but it's more than nothing.
i regularly shoot 1080 and drop into 480(SD) timelines....i used to fake pans and zooms all the time, but now that i've mastered my slider i don't need to fake it anymore. =)
 
yeah in a dolly shot the relation of the objects to each other / the background changes. This is why you can get the Hitchcock zoom / dolly effect. If you zoom the opposite way from which you are dollying it's disorienting because the object stays relatively the same size but it's relationship to the background will change. If dollying didn't change the relationship of objects then the Hitchcock zoom would leave the image unchanged.

It's not entirely like a zoom either. Because in a zoom the camera changes focal lengths. We don't notice this as much because the framing of the shot changes as the object becomes larger / has the feel of coming closer. But the perscieved relationships of objects does change in a zoom since longer focla lengths can make things look closer together while shorter focal lengths can make them look farther apart. Again though, this may not be that noticible since the whole frame changes and the object of focus seems to come closer. Also if you start at 35mm and zoom in to 135mm the depth of field will become shallower.

So it's really in between. It feels a little more like a dolly because the focal length doesn't change, and then a little bit like a zoom because the spatial relationships doesn't change which might feel more like the less noticable spatial relationship in a zoom. Also the depth of field will not change in a post zoom.

It's actually exactly like an in camera electronic zoom, and this is why, in consumer cameras, optical zoom is a selling feature over electronic. Because an electronic zoom on a camera just blows up the image like your NLE does. No change in spatial relationship or focal length.

So that's the optics of it.

What about the application.

I use post zooms often. But subtly. If you post zoom minimally, it can either A) be so subtle that it isn't noticed but still has the effect of drawing us into the shot or B) pass itself off as a dolly shot because if you were dollying that percentage the spatial relationships wouldn't change that much. If you post zoom to the extreme it won't work for anyone but the complete novice's eye. It may confuse someone into thinking it's a zoom, but remember, zooms are looked down on as less interesting and not in wide use in modern CINEMAtography. Why, for one thing they are thought to make narrative pieces look more videoy, since video cameras zoom, and CINEMA dp's tend to avoid zooming. They avoid zooming because one of the constant goals of the cinematographer is to make a 2D medium look less flat / more 3D. So if you dolly in you make things look more 3D because you can see the spatial relationships - as I get closer to the object it changes greatly while the background chnages minimally - etc. Also electronic / post zooms are criticized because they feel unnaturall, not organic as a dolly move or even a zoom.

So, how can you sell a post zoom as more of a dolly move?

If you're doing handheld, and the zoom is subtle, it can be virtually indistinguishable from a dolly move. Reason being - in hand held the angle at which the camera is viewing objects is in flux - shif this way you see a little more around the thing, shift that way you see less around it. So if you post zoom in (a little) in post, it's easy to fool the eye. We know the subject of the shot is getting closer and also our relationship to the shapes is changing. Those to things together can make subtle post zooms very dolly like to even a trained eye. This kind of thing is great for that intimate character scene where you've chosen handheld to match the rough, fly on the wall, intimate feeling you wanted. Then a subtle post zoom looks like the camera man just moved in as the actor was getting to that teary revalation.

But you want your shoots smooth - you said "dolly" not "camera guy moving closer".

To disguise a post zoom as a smooth dolly, panning is your best slight of hand. While filmmimg, if you think this is a shot you'd like to blow up, then see if you can pan through it as you shoot. This can help the post zoom feel more organic and more like a dolly shot for the same reason that handheld can help disguize your electronic zoom as well.

The mileage you get out of handheld + post zoom and pan + post zoom will vary. In both instances, subtly moves will be easier to sell, and larger moves harder.
 
Jack Daniel Stanley said:
yeah in a dolly shot the relation of the objects to each other / the background changes. This is why you can get the Hitchcock zoom / dolly effect. If you zoom the opposite way from which you are dollying it's disorienting because the object stays relatively the same size but it's relationship to the background will change. If dollying didn't change the relationship of objects then the Hitchcock zoom would leave the image unchanged.

It's not entirely like a zoom either. Because in a zoom the camera changes focal lengths. We don't notice this as much because the framing of the shot changes as the object becomes larger / has the feel of coming closer. But the perscieved relationships of objects does change in a zoom since longer focla lengths can make things look closer together while shorter focal lengths can make them look farther apart. Again though, this may not be that noticible since the whole frame changes and the object of focus seems to come closer. Also if you start at 35mm and zoom in to 135mm the depth of field will become shallower.

So it's really in between. It feels a little more like a dolly because the focal length doesn't change, and then a little bit like a zoom because the spatial relationships doesn't change which might feel more like the less noticable spatial relationship in a zoom. Also the depth of field will not change in a post zoom.

It's actually exactly like an in camera electronic zoom, and this is why, in consumer cameras, optical zoom is a selling feature over electronic. Because an electronic zoom on a camera just blows up the image like your NLE does. No change in spatial relationship or focal length.

So that's the optics of it.

What about the application.

I use post zooms often. But subtly. If you post zoom minimally, it can either A) be so subtle that it isn't noticed but still has the effect of drawing us into the shot or B) pass itself off as a dolly shot because if you were dollying that percentage the spatial relationships wouldn't change that much. If you post zoom to the extreme it won't work for anyone but the complete novice's eye. It may confuse someone into thinking it's a zoom, but remember, zooms are looked down on as less interesting and not in wide use in modern CINEMAtography. Why, for one thing they are thought to make narrative pieces look more videoy, since video cameras zoom, and CINEMA dp's tend to avoid zooming. They avoid zooming because one of the constant goals of the cinematographer is to make a 2D medium look less flat / more 3D. So if you dolly in you make things look more 3D because you can see the spatial relationships - as I get closer to the object it changes greatly while the background chnages minimally - etc. Also electronic / post zooms are criticized because they feel unnaturall, not organic as a dolly move or even a zoom.

So, how can you sell a post zoom as more of a dolly move?

If you're doing handheld, and the zoom is subtle, it can be virtually indistinguishable from a dolly move. Reason being - in hand held the angle at which the camera is viewing objects is in flux - shif this way you see a little more around the thing, shift that way you see less around it. So if you post zoom in (a little) in post, it's easy to fool the eye. We know the subject of the shot is getting closer and also our relationship to the shapes is changing. Those to things together can make subtle post zooms very dolly like to even a trained eye. This kind of thing is great for that intimate character scene where you've chosen handheld to match the rough, fly on the wall, intimate feeling you wanted. Then a subtle post zoom looks like the camera man just moved in as the actor was getting to that teary revalation.

But you want your shoots smooth - you said "dolly" not "camera guy moving closer".

To disguise a post zoom as a smooth dolly, panning is your best slight of hand. While filmmimg, if you think this is a shot you'd like to blow up, then see if you can pan through it as you shoot. This can help the post zoom feel more organic and more like a dolly shot for the same reason that handheld can help disguize your electronic zoom as well.

The mileage you get out of handheld + post zoom and pan + post zoom will vary. In both instances, subtly moves will be easier to sell, and larger moves harder.
Click to expand...

Really interesting. Thanks! My goal would be subtle "fake" dolly's...nothing dramatic, just a little "push in" to give some slight interest the shot.

The movie I'm about to shoot features one actor playing two characters (in the same shot). So, a lot of my shots will have to be locked down so I can composite them in post. I figured if I give myself a little room to keyframe scale in post, it will turn a static shot into something with a little more life. And, "sell" the illusion that he is two different people a little more.
 
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