GH4 Shogun 4k owners/Users, report! Well?
- Thread starter wwjd
- Start date
Justin Kuhn
Veteran
I'm particularly interested in how the dynamic range and gradability is improved since the resolution comparisons I saw seemed to indicate there was no difference.
Curnsie
Well-known member
I'd also be interested in this, however, there would need to be significant difference to make me purchase a Shogun.
I had a Ninja 2 with my C100 and didn't see any noticeable difference in the image quality - in saying that the C100 output 8bit via HDMI whereas the GH4 outputs 10bit.
I had a Ninja 2 with my C100 and didn't see any noticeable difference in the image quality - in saying that the C100 output 8bit via HDMI whereas the GH4 outputs 10bit.
trw_mavrik
Active member
Hi
Ive seen some videos where there is lag an was just wondering this still is he case. Also are the audio (if recorded into the Shogun) and video in sync with the lag?
Regards
T
Ive seen some videos where there is lag an was just wondering this still is he case. Also are the audio (if recorded into the Shogun) and video in sync with the lag?
Regards
T
TheTrickster
Well-known member
I'm surprised by the lack of response here 
Colour and Resolution wise, I think I its been said before, there is very little difference. I think there was some contrast issues, but this is if you run it in 0-255, or 16-235 etc
My main question for this too, would be the benefit of the 220mbps ProRes codec? - and the decrease in macro blocking as looking at my footage (when I'm trying to profile neat video) its very blocky in certain channels.
Colour and Resolution wise, I think I its been said before, there is very little difference. I think there was some contrast issues, but this is if you run it in 0-255, or 16-235 etc
My main question for this too, would be the benefit of the 220mbps ProRes codec? - and the decrease in macro blocking as looking at my footage (when I'm trying to profile neat video) its very blocky in certain channels.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Dave Dugdale did a review of the Shogun.
To be honest I'm kind of surprised how many people feel a device like this can make a huge difference. While the Shogun is 4k which is pretty neat that is in no way shape or form any different than external video recording over the last ten years. Recording to ProRes in SD, HD or 4k is no different and therefore you can look to the years and years of tests and examples from similar devices to see if it will make a difference or not.
Just look at Ninja tests for HD material to see how much advantage such a device has. The issues of dynamic range, color and macro blocking will be identical no matter what resolution is recorded. ProRes vs H264 is the same no matter what. The Shogun is exactly the same as a Ninja. It just takes a 4k signal and records to 4k ProRes instead of being limited to a HD signal and HD ProRes. Every thing else is equal in comparison.
If the macro blocking from the bit starved 4k on the GH4 bothers you and you can actually see it then yes the Shogun will help you. If you have no clue what the heck I'm talking about and the 4k from the GH4 is amazing to you then no the Shogun will not help. Compression in general does not alter the way an image looks or change its physical properties. You get more macro blocking and edge noise with higher compression but other than that the image itself is largely unaltered. Same with 8bit vs 10bit and 4:2:0 vs 4:2:2. The image will still for the most part look identical. It may have a bit more banding and you may notice a step look to high color contrast edges (if you zoom in a lot) but it still looks the same. A device like a Shogun will never create an amazing new look for a camera. It just gives you more of the same to help the image from falling apart in post.
To be honest I'm kind of surprised how many people feel a device like this can make a huge difference. While the Shogun is 4k which is pretty neat that is in no way shape or form any different than external video recording over the last ten years. Recording to ProRes in SD, HD or 4k is no different and therefore you can look to the years and years of tests and examples from similar devices to see if it will make a difference or not.
Just look at Ninja tests for HD material to see how much advantage such a device has. The issues of dynamic range, color and macro blocking will be identical no matter what resolution is recorded. ProRes vs H264 is the same no matter what. The Shogun is exactly the same as a Ninja. It just takes a 4k signal and records to 4k ProRes instead of being limited to a HD signal and HD ProRes. Every thing else is equal in comparison.
If the macro blocking from the bit starved 4k on the GH4 bothers you and you can actually see it then yes the Shogun will help you. If you have no clue what the heck I'm talking about and the 4k from the GH4 is amazing to you then no the Shogun will not help. Compression in general does not alter the way an image looks or change its physical properties. You get more macro blocking and edge noise with higher compression but other than that the image itself is largely unaltered. Same with 8bit vs 10bit and 4:2:0 vs 4:2:2. The image will still for the most part look identical. It may have a bit more banding and you may notice a step look to high color contrast edges (if you zoom in a lot) but it still looks the same. A device like a Shogun will never create an amazing new look for a camera. It just gives you more of the same to help the image from falling apart in post.
was looking for users usage comments like: it functions better than expected, the start stop record works great now, I love "X" about this, but think "Y" should be fixed, the mount is weak and I fixed with "Z", the screen is best/worse because such and such, signal is delayed but records in sync, etc etc etc
that kind of live usage feedback.
that kind of live usage feedback.
negativespace
Member
I've been using the Shogun with the GH4 since January. I've put in about 12 solid days with it on various projects. Although it's become a staple in my GH4 kit, there's been some frustrating moments...
THE GOOD...
The image is great and my colorist loves the footage 10bit 4-2-2 makes a huge difference in color correction. I was DP on a show that was 2 RED Scarlets as A & B cams, and we threw in a GH4 as a wide C cam on the fly, during production. This was November, before the Shogun came out, so we recorded 4K internally. The colorist had trouble with the latitude of the footage, bur for the purposes of our pilot, it kind of saved us to have a wide to cut to and it matched close enough. Since the Shogun, my colorist and VFX artist have reported a noticeable difference in the latitude.
The tools are solid...waveform, focus peaking, false color and a solid, large monitor for framing. On run-n-gun shoots, it works nicely as a client monitor, when they are looking over your shoulder.
The SSDs have long run times, which is great for certain gigs...like car auctions that I shoot a few times per year that require 5 hrs of continuous recording.
THE BAD...
Battery life. The NP-750 batteries are useless. When I first got the Shogun, I shot a sizzle reel on a yacht. We had to run stingers all around the damn boat because the batts were dying after minutes. It was right after Xmas vaca, so there was no time to prep. Three GH4's with shoguns and stingers running all over the boat. Cast, crew, stingers and water everywhere. A nightmare. I since bought a Ptap to DC in from Media Blackout (dot net) and it's a lifesaver. A 230WH V-Mount will run it for 2 days.
Audio delay is frustrating. I need to firmware up and see where it's at now, but the delay is an annoying explanation that I hate delivering to clients.
THE MEDIOCRE...
The build. Although it is pretty lightweight, the build feels a bit cheap. The lemo audio port and the DC in don't feel very solid.
The power button kinda gets stuck if you push it in on an angle. It's only happened a few times, but I consider it everytime that I press that button.
The software is a bit glitchy...the touchscreen has frozen a few times, but I have never lost a take or any footage.
There's probably some more feedback...I'll ask some of my cohorts that have op'd with me on the gigs that use the shogun. Bottom line is whether you need it or not in your post workflow (Color correction and VFX) and/or like the tools that it provides.
THE GOOD...
The image is great and my colorist loves the footage 10bit 4-2-2 makes a huge difference in color correction. I was DP on a show that was 2 RED Scarlets as A & B cams, and we threw in a GH4 as a wide C cam on the fly, during production. This was November, before the Shogun came out, so we recorded 4K internally. The colorist had trouble with the latitude of the footage, bur for the purposes of our pilot, it kind of saved us to have a wide to cut to and it matched close enough. Since the Shogun, my colorist and VFX artist have reported a noticeable difference in the latitude.
The tools are solid...waveform, focus peaking, false color and a solid, large monitor for framing. On run-n-gun shoots, it works nicely as a client monitor, when they are looking over your shoulder.
The SSDs have long run times, which is great for certain gigs...like car auctions that I shoot a few times per year that require 5 hrs of continuous recording.
THE BAD...
Battery life. The NP-750 batteries are useless. When I first got the Shogun, I shot a sizzle reel on a yacht. We had to run stingers all around the damn boat because the batts were dying after minutes. It was right after Xmas vaca, so there was no time to prep. Three GH4's with shoguns and stingers running all over the boat. Cast, crew, stingers and water everywhere. A nightmare. I since bought a Ptap to DC in from Media Blackout (dot net) and it's a lifesaver. A 230WH V-Mount will run it for 2 days.
Audio delay is frustrating. I need to firmware up and see where it's at now, but the delay is an annoying explanation that I hate delivering to clients.
THE MEDIOCRE...
The build. Although it is pretty lightweight, the build feels a bit cheap. The lemo audio port and the DC in don't feel very solid.
The power button kinda gets stuck if you push it in on an angle. It's only happened a few times, but I consider it everytime that I press that button.
The software is a bit glitchy...the touchscreen has frozen a few times, but I have never lost a take or any footage.
There's probably some more feedback...I'll ask some of my cohorts that have op'd with me on the gigs that use the shogun. Bottom line is whether you need it or not in your post workflow (Color correction and VFX) and/or like the tools that it provides.
Gh4 / Shogun user here. I've been using it since mid January and while it's been generally good I do have a few complaints.
Pros...
• Image quality is great! 10 bit from the Gh4 looks fantastic, and though my work seldom goes to a professional colorist I myself have had great luck really pushing it in post and really doing some serious manipulation with my limited Resolve skills.
• Good connectivity. I use it on occasion with a Panasonic AC-160 or AF100 over SDI, and to record the output of live switched productions I work on (sometimes HDMI, sometimes SDI). It's nice to have the option to do XLR for instances where I can't get embedded audio over SDI or HDMI.
• Good tools. Waveform, vector, peaking, false color; all work for me. I've read some complaints, but for my uses everything works just fine.
• I like SSDs as a recording medium. I own a BMCC so I already have them. I like the ProRes workflow as well so the files the Shogun puts out are perfect for me.
Cons...
• Huge lag when coming from Gh4. It's incredibly hard to focus using this screen when the Gh4 is handheld. I overshoot the focus every single time. I'll just use the Gh4's built in monitor and point the Shogun up and use it only as a recorder if I'm handheld in a tight spot. The lag is a Gh4 problem, not a Shogun problem, but worth mentioning.
• Battery life sucks with all of the Sony L batteries I have, like absolutely useless. I built myself a DTap to DC cable to use my Anton Bauer batteries, and while they'll last all day they're super bulky and kind of defeats the point of a small DSLR camera rig.
• I think the build quality is lacking for a $2000 device. The power button is flimsy and it just doesn't feel like a Pro device.
• Still buggy. Sometimes the screen doesn't respond well. This past Monday it wouldn't playback clips when I was trying to show a shot to a client, even after restart. The footage was fine, but it just would not play back.
• I'm not a huge fan of the touchscreen. It's not particularly responsive. Zooming in and out, and scrolling through playback usually takes multiple tries.
And finally, the big one... this is my second Shogun. My first died on it's 5th shoot. Screen just blacked out and wouldn't come back on. I had about 15 minutes of footage shot and all was lost. They're support was helpful and sent me a replacement right away, but my 1 month old never abused recorder shouldn't just die on a shoot.
Pros...
• Image quality is great! 10 bit from the Gh4 looks fantastic, and though my work seldom goes to a professional colorist I myself have had great luck really pushing it in post and really doing some serious manipulation with my limited Resolve skills.
• Good connectivity. I use it on occasion with a Panasonic AC-160 or AF100 over SDI, and to record the output of live switched productions I work on (sometimes HDMI, sometimes SDI). It's nice to have the option to do XLR for instances where I can't get embedded audio over SDI or HDMI.
• Good tools. Waveform, vector, peaking, false color; all work for me. I've read some complaints, but for my uses everything works just fine.
• I like SSDs as a recording medium. I own a BMCC so I already have them. I like the ProRes workflow as well so the files the Shogun puts out are perfect for me.
Cons...
• Huge lag when coming from Gh4. It's incredibly hard to focus using this screen when the Gh4 is handheld. I overshoot the focus every single time. I'll just use the Gh4's built in monitor and point the Shogun up and use it only as a recorder if I'm handheld in a tight spot. The lag is a Gh4 problem, not a Shogun problem, but worth mentioning.
• Battery life sucks with all of the Sony L batteries I have, like absolutely useless. I built myself a DTap to DC cable to use my Anton Bauer batteries, and while they'll last all day they're super bulky and kind of defeats the point of a small DSLR camera rig.
• I think the build quality is lacking for a $2000 device. The power button is flimsy and it just doesn't feel like a Pro device.
• Still buggy. Sometimes the screen doesn't respond well. This past Monday it wouldn't playback clips when I was trying to show a shot to a client, even after restart. The footage was fine, but it just would not play back.
• I'm not a huge fan of the touchscreen. It's not particularly responsive. Zooming in and out, and scrolling through playback usually takes multiple tries.
And finally, the big one... this is my second Shogun. My first died on it's 5th shoot. Screen just blacked out and wouldn't come back on. I had about 15 minutes of footage shot and all was lost. They're support was helpful and sent me a replacement right away, but my 1 month old never abused recorder shouldn't just die on a shoot.
True North
Well-known member
Great feedback from Negative Space and Chmiola - thanks for sharing
I was really hoping that the Shogun would be more for less but alas the old adage comes to mind....and in this case "you get what you pay for" it seems. The Odyssey is a more expensive option but it is more powerful than the Shogun and seemingly a better build. I wonder if Atmos could have beefed up the build quality a little and even charged a little more while still keeping it cheaper than the Odyssey. I can accept a little less performance if it costs less, but at $2000+ making it appear and feel 'cheap' should have been avoided. At least there are options.
I was really hoping that the Shogun would be more for less but alas the old adage comes to mind....and in this case "you get what you pay for" it seems. The Odyssey is a more expensive option but it is more powerful than the Shogun and seemingly a better build. I wonder if Atmos could have beefed up the build quality a little and even charged a little more while still keeping it cheaper than the Odyssey. I can accept a little less performance if it costs less, but at $2000+ making it appear and feel 'cheap' should have been avoided. At least there are options.
http://pvgear.com/blogs/news/tagged/pvgear-atomos-shogun-cage
Looks like an interesting option for those worried about the plastic build, and if pricing is like other pvgear stuff, it won't be stupid expensive
Looks like an interesting option for those worried about the plastic build, and if pricing is like other pvgear stuff, it won't be stupid expensive
edmundronald
Member
any odyssey 7Q+ user reports?
Sound Devices (or I guess they are now calling their video products Video Devices), just announced a line of new 4K recorders (the PIX-E series):
http://www.videodevices.com/products/portable-video-recorders/pix-e
If they are built anything like the earlier PIX recorders they should be pretty rugged. No word on pricing or expected availability yet, although if I had to guess, I'd expect them to come in at a higher price point than the Shogun.
Never hurts to have some more options and competition when it comes to 4K recorders. I wouldn't be surprised if Blackmagic announces a portable 4K recorder (maybe a 4K version of the HyperDeck Shuttle) in the near future.
http://www.videodevices.com/products/portable-video-recorders/pix-e
If they are built anything like the earlier PIX recorders they should be pretty rugged. No word on pricing or expected availability yet, although if I had to guess, I'd expect them to come in at a higher price point than the Shogun.
Never hurts to have some more options and competition when it comes to 4K recorders. I wouldn't be surprised if Blackmagic announces a portable 4K recorder (maybe a 4K version of the HyperDeck Shuttle) in the near future.