AC130: Settings for outdoor shooting for DVD

D

djp321

New member
Hi,

I'm quite new to this forum as this is my first real post.
I've been reading the forum a little since i got my ac130 cam not long ago.

I just ordered the Barry Green book, and i already bought and viewed the video intro to the 130/160 using the discount code from this site.
Obviously no one is posting the barry green scene file settings anywhere, and it's a pain to buy it in europe (trust me, i just did), and the book doesnt come with the cam as i can read it does in the US.
So i haven't been able to test any of them - again, obviously.

Anyway - Short background to my questions, as i'm new to HD:
I'll be shooting footage outdoors in various light conditions for a dvd movie.
Meaning - The end media is a dvd. Not web, not blueray etc.

Type of shots:
- large scale scenery of mountains / valleys etc.
- Closeup on moving objects on the water surface from a 10-25 meter distance, which i will also need to do slow-mo effects with in post.
- Interviews of people both inside and outside(with large scenery as background)

And now to the questions:
- Are there any of the default scene files that would be of really good use for this type of project?
- Would the scenefiles from The Barry Green book be of better use for this type of project?
- Someone told me that i should always shoot in progressive, and not interlaced, when its for a dvd - Correct?
- If Progressive is the way to go, and it's for a DVD, and i need slowmo effects too, would it be better to shoot everything in 720/50p instead of 1080/25p ?
- Would it be better to mix the types depending on the scenes and whatever effects are needed in post?
- Should i stop write these questions and just wait for the Barry Green book to arrive? :-)



And completely off-topic:
To be honest i bought the 130 as i was told that the firmware upgrade regarding 1080/50p would apply for the ac130 too.
A week after i bought the ac130, it was announced that it would only be for the 160 version - Argh!!
Anyone thinks(or knows) that the 1080/50p will be included in a future firmware update for the ac130 ?

I hope someone will take the time to answer maybe just some of my questions :-)


Thanks in advance,

Best regards,
Dennis J. P.
Denmark
 
Last edited:
Congratulations on your new camera and welcome to the forum. I'll try to answer a few questions below:

When deciding on the frame rate to shoot at, you need to think about what you want the finished piece to look like motion-wise. 25p looks very different than 50p. Personally I like the more "filmic" rates of 24/25, but the higher 50/60p can look really cool in the right application like for sports or reality shows. It sounds like in your case, 25p might be more appropriate for a traditional documentary you're describing? You can always shoot 720p50 for the parts you want in slow motion - it will cut just fine with the 1080 stuff - but interviews and normal footage will probably look better at 25p. You'll also have an easier time shooting in low-light with 25p...


Barry's book has the answers to most of your questions, but in the meantime, take a look at this document from Panasonic regarding picture profiles: http://www.filmrocks.com/pdf/AG_HMC150SceneFileHandbook.pdf

Here's somewhere to start based on what I usually shoot with:
V DETAIL: -3 (These detail settings are ADDING detail, so -7 is the camera shooting without sharpening)
H DETAIL: -3 (AC130 is pretty crispy already, you can sharpen a LITTLE bit in post later if you ever need to)
DETAIL CORING: 0 (You're outside in bright light so no real worries here.=)
CHROMA LEVEL: -2 (Plenty of color from this camera, you can always saturate more in post)
CHROMA PHASE: 0 (More green or more magenta if it suits your taste)
MASTER PEDESTAL: -3 or -4 (This is one that makes a pretty big impact, so tune to your own tastes, -2 to -4 is the general consensus)
DRS: OFF or 1 (Even better, assign this to a User button for when you need it)
GAMMA: HD NORM (Most people seem to be using HD NORM for the cleanest picture - though CINE D might work well for you outside...try it!)
KNEE: LOW (Helps retain detail in bright areas of the scene, this is disabled with CINE D...)
MATRIX: NORM 2 (Again, most people using this for General shooting, FLUO can be useful if you're ever shooting indoors under florescent lights)
SKIN TONE DTL: OFF (Buy a $5 container of powder make-up and use it if you're going to be doing any sort of substantial interviews)

Hook up the camera to a TV set and play around with the scene files. You'll get a feel for what each one does and what you like. It's all really personal taste. There is no "perfect scene file." A particular scene file may work better outside, while another may work better inside - another for fluorescents, one for lit interviews, etc.


Ok, do this now: For the interviews, and especially the outdoor ones, go buy a big collapsible bounce disc with white on one side and silver/gold on the other. Even better if its translucent on the inside. Seriously. Right now. With this camera you're going to struggle with dynamic range doing outside stuff (as you would with most any camera), so make it easy on yourself and get the accessory that will make a HUGE difference.


Unfortunately, the AC130 will NOT be getting the 1080p50 upgrade.


Hope that helps!
 
AF100 and AC130/160 Match Profile Settings

AF100 and AC130/160 Match Profile Settings

Sure, here's what I've been using. They don't match perfect, the red hues are a tad different because of the sensor, but I think they're pretty close. The "SHOW/EVENT" settings were calibrated to match as close as possible, while the "CINEMATIC" presets are general settings that I find favorable for most shooting conditions. I adjust the Chroma and Sharpness on location depending on what I'm shooting, with less sharpness and less chroma for narrative pieces and sharper and more saturated images for stuff I don't plan on color correcting or ENG work.

– Settings not mentioned are "0" –

FOR LIT STAGE SHOWS/EVENTS:

AF100
Detail: 0
V Detail: 0
Detail Coring: +2
Chroma: 0
Chroma Phase: +2
Master Ped: -2
Gamma: HD Norm
Knee: Low
Matrix: Cine-Like

AC130/160
Detail: 0
V Detail: 0
Detail Coring: +2
Chroma: -1
Chroma Phase: +3
Master Ped: -2
Gamma: HD Norm
Knee: Low
Matrix: Cine-Like


FOR GENERAL "CINEMATIC" USE TO BE GRADED LATER:

AF100
Detail: -3
V Detail: -3
Chroma: -4
Master Ped: -2
DRS: Off
Gamma: HD Norm
Knee: Low
Matrix: Norm 2


AC130/160Detail: -3
V Detail: -3
Master Ped: -3
DRS: Off
Gamma: HD Norm OR Cine-Like D
Knee: Low
Matrix: Norm 2 OR Fluo



*** I shoot with Kino Flo lights, so sometimes I'll change up the AC130/160 with the FLOU Matrix. Similarly, if my scene is well-lit and I need to see more detail in the lows, for example in product training videos, I'll use the Cine-Like D settings on the 130/160. Because of the larger sensor, the AF100 seems to do alright in both of these special instances staying with the HD NORM Gamma all the time, but I may switch to the FLOU Matrix if the scene calls for it. Again, there is no perfect preset! Learn what the settings do and be confident in switching them for the particular scene you're shooting!
 
So what have been people's settings for outdoors w/ bright sun and no other lighting. (essentially I am shooting a moving object that spans an area of half of a football field. I shoot at ground level so sky affects my images. I am hoping the settings below will address the different values between subject and sky.
Seems like :
Gamma: Low
Knee: Low
Chroma Level: +1 (to help add a hint of saturation)
DRS: (arg) half of me wants 'off' the other half says go for '3'. Seems like 3 would help cut down on the high contrast the sun gives me. the book talks about noise but I assume being well lit, noise should not be a factor.

everything else I plan to leave at normal levels (0)

anyone have any thoughts or experiences on any of this?
 
Shooting with DRS 3 on an AC cam means giving the camera permission to add up to +18dB of gain in the shadows. I would never use drs 3 unless there was no other way to get the shot.
 
So DRS does not act like a TBC and adjusts the black level.. it rather just bumps up the gain in the shadows. I don't want to call that cheating... but it sounds like a less than desirable way to adjust the black level.
what about the over exposed areas? How does DRS handle that? no such thing as -18dB
 
ELN614 said:
what about the over exposed areas? How does DRS handle that? no such thing as -18dB
Click to expand...

Well, but you are not supposed to have overexposed, blown out highlights. That is what the Zebra patterns function is for, is to give you a warning to avoid such a scenario taking place.

If despite your best efforts highlights are still overexposed, then you will need to do some post-processing to correct that.
 
ELN614 said:
So DRS does not act like a TBC and adjusts the black level.. it rather just bumps up the gain in the shadows. I don't want to call that cheating... but it sounds like a less than desirable way to adjust the black level.
what about the over exposed areas? How does DRS handle that? no such thing as -18dB
Click to expand...
DRS adjusts basically every pixel (not truly, but basically) until it thinks they're in optimum exposure range. It boosts the shadows where it thinks they need boosting, and it leaves them alone when it thinks they're okay. It yanks down the highlights when the highlights need yanking down. It's like having an individual iris over every pixel. Again, not really, but that's kind of the way to describe what it basically does. It's not boosting the black level uniformly at all. But when it does boost up the black level, it uses digital gain to do so.

DRS 1 uses up to about 3dB, DRS 2 uses up to about 6dB, and DRS 3 is the max, and can use up to about 18dB. Which is why I say, don't use it unless you really need it. DRS 1 is pretty safe, if what you're trying to do is tame skies while maintaining a low-noise image.
 
Hi Barry, another little gem for me! I did not realize that DRS operated on an "only as required" principle. I assumed ( incorrectly as with most ill considered assumptions) that DRS was a fixed factor, similar to the gain switch but in ranges of the spectrum. So if DRS 3 was set as a setting , when it kicks in, would it be at its maximum setting or would it adjust to conditions up to that maximum? (I suppose if it did that there would be little point in having the lower settings and DRS 3 would become a wide range self adjusting variable function)

You reveal more of this little cameras treasure trove every day, thanks for that.
Rod
 
It will only act as much as it thinks it has to, but it can be aggressive. DRS is a weird and sometimes powerful thing. But in general I recommend not using it unless you really need it. At stronger settings it can cause some shadowing effects around areas of high contrast, as well as noisy shadows. It's something best held in reserve until you really need it, and not something you should be using all the time.
 
I need to shoot a farm next week and we will be shooting under very sunny conditions. According to Barry's book you shouldn't close the iris completely but leave it open ~2 or more spots below the bottom. So obviously just by doing this, the image will still be blown out. I have been using the ND filter (1/64 in some cases) to remedy this but have noticed that the end product looks too tinted (blueish/grey in color). Is this the best tool I could be using under the sun or should I look to be utilizing the knee or DRS in these cases? or a combination? or something different?

Also, when using the ND filter, should I white balance after I've applied the filter or does it not matter? Will this help my tint problem?
 
Barry_Green said:
It will only act as much as it thinks it has to, but it can be aggressive. DRS is a weird and sometimes powerful thing. But in general I recommend not using it unless you really need it. At stronger settings it can cause some shadowing effects around areas of high contrast, as well as noisy shadows. It's something best held in reserve until you really need it, and not something you should be using all the time.
Click to expand...

Barry, do you think having DRS (1) enabled would have made this footage noisy in the shadows?

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?288342-Interval-Recording&p=1986187542#post1986187542#1

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but since there's discussion here about DRS and using NDs I thought it fit. Plus I can't seem to get any response to my thread. So would really appreciate any comments or suggestions you might have.

The other thing is the footage looked pretty soft to me. I'm used to the AF100 and it will take some adjusting to remember to keep the AC160A at f/5.6 or wider. I actually had it at f/5.0 for this shoot. But recently read that Adam Wilt suggests not going any smaller than 4.0 (maybe f/4.8). What are your thoughts on that?
 
Doesn't look noisy to me. Looks fine. Looks soft, but not noisy.

As for iris, 5.6 seems like the limit to me, but 4.0 is technically accurate because the red portion of the signal (the longest wavelength) starts getting interfered with as soon as f/4. I think you can afford a bit more leeway (down to 5.6 at the MOST) because red is recorded at a lower resolution (4:2:0 encoding) so it's not absolutely required that red be rendered at its absolute maximum res in order to still get good imagery (and red only makes up 30% of the video signal anyway). But that's probably more than you wanted to/needed to know. In general I think you're definitely good at f/4, and if you really need to you can go past it to 4.8, and in a pinch you can stretch to 5.6, but I wouldn't go any further.
 
Barry_Green said:
Doesn't look noisy to me. Looks fine. Looks soft, but not noisy.

As for iris, 5.6 seems like the limit to me, but 4.0 is technically accurate because the red portion of the signal (the longest wavelength) starts getting interfered with as soon as f/4. I think you can afford a bit more leeway (down to 5.6 at the MOST) because red is recorded at a lower resolution (4:2:0 encoding) so it's not absolutely required that red be rendered at its absolute maximum res in order to still get good imagery (and red only makes up 30% of the video signal anyway). But that's probably more than you wanted to/needed to know. In general I think you're definitely good at f/4, and if you really need to you can go past it to 4.8, and in a pinch you can stretch to 5.6, but I wouldn't go any further.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Barry. Nicely detailed explanation. Appreciated the technical stuff too.

I really noticed the noise when I tried to sharpen the footage. Normally don't have that problem. Would you use DRS on a scene like that?
 
ELN614 said:
...(essentially I am shooting a moving object that spans an area of half of a football field. I shoot at ground level so sky affects my images.
Click to expand...

For fear of the CIA coming after me, I'll refrain from asking about the specific nature of your subject – however, perhaps a polarizer could help bring out some more detail in the sky and cut down any reflections.
 
tflak said:
Thanks, Barry. Nicely detailed explanation. Appreciated the technical stuff too.

I really noticed the noise when I tried to sharpen the footage. Normally don't have that problem. Would you use DRS on a scene like that?
Click to expand...
DRS might have brightened up the darker branches and shadows. Noise is usually not a problem on these cameras, it depends mainly on your detail level. I don't know what gamma and detail level you were using, but cine-D with about -2 to -3 detail level should result in a nice, smooth, noiseless, solid image.
 
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