C500: Selling point of C500 Mark II/C700

Eric Coughlin

Eric Coughlin

Veteran
So the rumored C500 Mark II/C700, which is said to be a shoulder mounted unit to compete with the Amira, priced around $30k, what do you suppose the selling point of it will be?

Here are some primary selling points of other competing cameras as I see them...

Amira has Arri colors and dynamic range, better than the competition.
Varicam LT has the dual ISO trick.
Red has resolution and internal compressed RAW.
C300 Mark II has great auto-focus.
F55 (I guess it doesn't have a particularly unique feature; 4K RAW in a shoulder mounted design)

I'd figure as an upgrade over the C300 Mark II, the C700 would have internal RAW, maybe ProRes (though likely not), and higher frame rate options. But I feel like it would need more than just that to compete. It needs a unique feature. Otherwise it fails in popularity like the C500 did, which gave 4K RAW with higher frame rates, but not much else. A lot of shoots don't like using RAW (as many Alexa productions choose ProRes) and many shoots don't need high frame rates.

For me, to compete with the Amira I think it'd be a tough sell if it has the same sensor as the C300 Mark II, which doesn't have as good of image quality as the Amira. I guess for those who don't like the C300's form factor, it could give those who like a shoulder mounted form-factor an option in the Canon Cinema market which the C500 did not offer.

So what do you think its selling point would be?
 
It'll work with the thousands of dollars of Canon lenses most camera op's already have!

Isn't that pretty much the same selling point that Canon have been using for every camera they've released since the 5DmkII made verybody invest in EOS glass?
 
15 stop high dynamic range
+ 6-8K chip / 4K high bit rate internal recorder / 16bit raw file
+ Global shutter (given the additional space for cooling)
 
vcreative said:
+ Global shutter (given the additional space for cooling)
Click to expand...
Ah yes, global shutter. I suppose that is a unique feature of the F55. Would be an interesting addition to a C700.



deltoidjohn said:
It'll work with the thousands of dollars of Canon lenses most camera op's already have!

Isn't that pretty much the same selling point that Canon have been using for every camera they've released since the 5DmkII made verybody invest in EOS glass?
Click to expand...
Non-Canon cameras work with Canon glass. Auto-focus and sometimes IS don't work (as well), but at this price point you're probably likely using cinema glass anyway which don't have auto-focus and IS, and Canon cinema lenses work just about as fine with non-Canon cameras as they do with Canon cameras.

With the coming firmware update for the C300 Mark II focus assist (which the C700 would likely have) will work with Canon CN-e primes, but I don't see that as all that big of a deal to the point of it being a big selling point to choose Canon over other brands.
 
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vcreative said:
15 stop high dynamic range
+ 6-8K chip / 4K high bit rate internal recorder / 16bit raw file
+ Global shutter (given the additional space for cooling)
Click to expand...

I doubt the global shutter, though it's not an impossibility. A true 4:4:4 4K needs 26.4 MPX, which only new Red Weapon and Helium cameras have*. The dynamic range can be improved with a dual-read sensor, as it is already on C300 MKII. Maybe, the new model will have BSI sensor for better low light.

16 Bit Raw is doable for a high end camera too.

I guess the overall idea is to come close to Alexa65 specs without the Alexa65 price.

I also think Sony would have to match that and Red and ARRI by this fall too, even if it doesn't begin deliveries until 2017.

* And the Panavision version of Weapon.
 
The idea of the Alexa65 is a large format sensor video camera. Which means all your current EF and PL mount lenses won't cover that sensor size. So I think that's a niche in the high end that I don't think Canon would try to tackle in a $30k camera which they hope to sell a lot of, along with Canon wanting you to be able to use Canon lenses with it. The 8K Red Helium sensor is S35, which doesn't seem like anything special to me; it's just more resolution in a regular sized sensor, so compromises will have to be made in terms of using small photosites.

I guess if the camera is 16 bit raw it could rival the Sony F65, which is really the only current competitor to the Alexa in terms of image quality, as the F65 is generally regarded as having better quality, but being a pain to work with, hence its low popularity.

But is the difference between 12 bit on the C300 Mark II and 16 bit on the C700 going to make much difference in terms of skin tones? I'd imagine the sensor would be more of a determining factor for skin tones, which, if it's the same senor, then skin tones would look mostly the same. I guess you gain more tonality with a higher bit depth, but how much does that really help? Consider the 16 bit F55 which has worse skin tones than the 8 bit C300 Mark I.

I believe the Alexa is 14 bit, but uses dual gain to combine signals to create a 16 bit image. Or something like that. I'm just paraphrasing what I just read on the Arri website.
 
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I feel that Canon is exceedingly good at not being best in a single category, yet come out very well after all is said and done. Being consistently 2nd or 3rd best in a competition of 10+ disciplines, might very well net you a top score at the end.

I think this was especially true in the 'early days' where other competitors had one or two strengths and many relative weaknesses. But as each brand matures, the race becomes tighter and tighter. In this day and age you probably want to be best in at least one category. To me though, that can also be 'form factor' or ergonomic design—it doesn't have to be DR or resolution.

In loose terms, I think Canon is trying to keep up, but also keeping it real. The original C300 sensor was interesting as it was 4k for 1080p delivery. We know that Canon has high resolution sensors in the works. A full 8k sensor for 4k internal with the option to offload 8k would be possible.

Once you get the IQ to 'good enough', convenience features such as DPAF and great color space options/compability start to look really interesting.
 
If this anamorphic rumor has any weight: http://www.canonrumors.com/patent-cinema-eos-37-5-100mm-t3-3-anamorphic-lens/

I'd say it's possible canon is getting into the 4:3 sensor game. If Canon can hop in on anamorphic before Panasonic and Sony at that lower price point it might get really interesting for them. Hopefully it will include all the framerates the mk2 has, but in full sensor read out and full resolution! I would imagine with the Sony F55 latest upgrade for shooting 4k 120 raw I think Canon has to acheive at least that at either raw or a decent compression ratio.

I did a lot of testing with amira and mk2, the image holds up when properly exposed. It clips a bit faster in the high lights but digs into the shadows more and I noticed the mk2 had a bit more nuance in color than the amira. The arri sensor mops the floor with it when it comes to pushing exposure in post though. We did a 2 stop under exposure and then pushed both cameras. It was not pretty! We'll see how the next firmware does with the new Log3 and supposed clean up of log2.

I have not tested the raw output of the mk2 yet. Has anyone dived into that yet?
 
Eric Coughlin said:
The idea of the Alexa65 is a large format sensor video camera. Which means all your current EF and PL mount lenses won't cover that sensor size. So I think that's a niche in the high end that I don't think Canon would try to tackle in a $30k camera which they hope to sell a lot of, along with Canon wanting you to be able to use Canon lenses with it. The 8K Red Helium sensor is S35, which doesn't seem like anything special to me; it's just more resolution in a regular sized sensor, so compromises will have to be made in terms of using small photosites...
Click to expand...
I doubt they'll go for the MF sensor like Alexa65 but will try to match its specs in s35. BSI will help with low light but they must figure that anyone with $30,000 for the camera plus thousands more for accessories will be able to properly light the set. Let's not forget that, if one needs an extreme low light performance, Canon also has that full frame 1080p model out with 4,000,000 ISO.

Theoretically speaking, Canon doesn't have to come up with anything super inventive, just get its specs up to the competition two price levels up or, as Andree said above, just get no worse than second/third place in each category for this video camera decathlon.
 
DLD said:
I doubt they'll go for the MF sensor like Alexa65 but will try to match its specs in s35.
Click to expand...
But I see the whole point of the Alexa 65 as being that it is medium format. If you have higher resolution in a smaller sensor (S35), then you sacrifice image quality due to using smaller photosites, like Red does. That's Arri's stance, which is why they choose to have lower resolution cameras with their 3.4k Alexas, and instead have higher dynamic range with better colors. And when they wanted to upgrade their resolution to 6.5k, they choose to keep the same photosite size by stitching together four Alexa sensors to create the medium format Alexa 65, and thus they upped the resolution without degrading the image quality.

Consider the Sony F3, which has a low resolution (around a 3.36 megapixel) S35 sensor, and thus larger photosites. It's image quality is better than the Sony FS7 and Sony F55 (11.6 megapixels) which have smaller photosites. Which means what? That if the C700 has 6.5K resolution in an S35 sensor, it's image quality would likely be a step backward from the C300 Mark II.



DLD said:
BSI will help with low light but they must figure that anyone with $30,000 for the camera plus thousands more for accessories will be able to properly light the set.
Click to expand...
Reading Charles Papert's posts about the Varicam 35 and being able to use smaller lighting packages on pretty high end TV sets, as well as being able to shoot at T/4 at night, means even with a good sized budget extra sensitivity can be very useful.
 
Eric Coughlin said:
So the rumored C500 Mark II/C700, which is said to be a shoulder mounted unit to compete with the Amira, priced around $30k, what do you suppose the selling point of it will be?

Here are some primary selling points of other competing cameras as I see them...

Amira has Arri colors and dynamic range, better than the competition.
Varicam LT has the dual ISO trick.
Red has resolution and internal compressed RAW.
C300 Mark II has great auto-focus.
F55 (I guess it doesn't have a particularly unique feature; 4K RAW in a shoulder mounted design)

I'd figure as an upgrade over the C300 Mark II, the C700 would have internal RAW, maybe ProRes (though likely not), and higher frame rate options. But I feel like it would need more than just that to compete. It needs a unique feature. Otherwise it fails in popularity like the C500 did, which gave 4K RAW with higher frame rates, but not much else. A lot of shoots don't like using RAW (as many Alexa productions choose ProRes) and many shoots don't need high frame rates.

For me, to compete with the Amira I think it'd be a tough sell if it has the same sensor as the C300 Mark II, which doesn't have as good of image quality as the Amira. I guess for those who don't like the C300's form factor, it could give those who like a shoulder mounted form-factor an option in the Canon Cinema market which the C500 did not offer.

So what do you think its selling point would be?
Click to expand...

Good question. Here's what I think they'd need to make shooters and shows on that level buy one:


-8k sensor with at least 6k in-camera recording.
-4k @ 120fps
-Internal RAW and Prores with no ridiculous expensive add-ons
-High ISO performance (may have to go with a larger sensor for that)
-Really nail the ergonomics and on-board monitoring solutions
-Interchangeable mounts
-This is in addition to all that the C300 mk2 does
 
vcreative said:
15 stop high dynamic range
+ 6-8K chip / 4K high bit rate internal recorder / 16bit raw file
+ Global shutter (given the additional space for cooling)
Click to expand...

I doubt Canon has the technology to make high performance global shutter, the challenges of global shutter sensor are DR and sensitivity, which BMPC4K suffers.
 
marvinhello said:
I doubt Canon has the technology to make high performance global shutter, the challenges of global shutter sensor are DR and sensitivity, which BMPC4K suffers.
Click to expand...

This was also one of the main reasons the 4.6K was delayed for so long as the BM team just couldn't provide a good balance...and ended up going with more DR and a RS.
 
Eric Coughlin said:
But I see the whole point of the Alexa 65 as being that it is medium format. If you have higher resolution in a smaller sensor (S35), then you sacrifice image quality due to using smaller photosites, like Red does. That's Arri's stance, which is why they choose to have lower resolution cameras with their 3.4k Alexas, and instead have higher dynamic range with better colors. And when they wanted to upgrade their resolution to 6.5k, they choose to keep the same photosite size by stitching together four Alexa sensors to create the medium format Alexa 65, and thus they upped the resolution without degrading the image quality.

Consider the Sony F3, which has a low resolution (around a 3.36 megapixel) S35 sensor, and thus larger photosites. It's image quality is better than the Sony FS7 and Sony F55 (11.6 megapixels) which have smaller photosites. Which means what? That if the C700 has 6.5K resolution in an S35 sensor, it's image quality would likely be a step backward from the C300 Mark II.




Reading Charles Papert's posts about the Varicam 35 and being able to use smaller lighting packages on pretty high end TV sets, as well as being able to shoot at T/4 at night, means even with a good sized budget extra sensitivity can be very useful.
Click to expand...

photosite size alone has nothing to do with overall image quality, look at F65, it crammed 20MP on a S35 sensor and its SN ratio, DR etc. are among the very best.

The design of the photosite (micro-lens, wiring etc) and sensor readout all contribute to how good a sensor is.
 
IMO, there'll be plenty of the high end "high ISO" cameras - most likely large FF/MF sensors with a 4K or even sub-4K pixel count - and bunch of 6K/8K cameras for the higher resolution/color science for the properly lit studio/outdoor sets. With the new LED tech, the power requirements for the lights and the necessary A/C have been lowered drastically already and, in ARRI's case, Alexa65 was used on "Revenant", by and large, for the twilight type scenes anyway. During the daylight, they still had regular s35 Alexas. This C500 MKII/C700 piece doesn't have to be all things to all people. It just has to hit most of the right spots.
 
You're all wrong. Their new big camera is all about ergonomics. If you are chasing higher res than 4K from Canon at this stage you are in the wrong camp - look into a RED.

Their other camera is hm... how to put it - a bit familiar.
 
I really just think the C500 II will be the 4K version of the C500 I. An 8K sensor with 8K raw out and 4K internal. High frame rates at 4K won't be much better than current high frame rates at 2K, but they will have a number of reduced resolution HFR modes. It just seems like a logical progression of what worked for Canon with the original line.

I assume the C700 line will be something else entirely.
 
Do we know, for a fact, that the C700 does or will even exist? Ot is this just one of those Canon Rumors types of things?
 
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