Seems like it's getting harder and harder to get people to watch short films

GoodLuck

GoodLuck

Well-known member
I checked the user film section on the forum. There are around 740+ user film threads with 0 replies. Around 300+ threads with 1 reply. I sorted by replies then counted the pages at the back x20 to get the numbers.


I got two people to check out and comment on my short film on the forum, which was nice. :Drogar-Happy(DBG):
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=194384

And around 10 commented on Vimeo, and around 5 publicly on myspace, and around 10 privately on myspace. And around 30 e-mailed private/messaged me elsewhere. Got around 5 replies on another forum. Not bad for it being online for only around 5 days and during the holiday time, few are online as much. However it seems lower than from a year ago.

I also got my short film link removed on 3 forums as video spam. I posted the vimeo link in just 1 new thread in the offtopic/lounge section and it was considered spam. Now I always thought spam was either excessive posting in the wrong section/or posting something that's a scam or dangerous like free ipods or pills. Or soliciting a service/product. Now apparently posting short film links is just as bad as offering up free ipods or pills. :Drogar-Shock(DBG):


It just seems like it's getting harder and harder to get people to watch/comment on a short. Even if it's with a "I think it sucks here's why", I think most filmmakers want some sort of feedback/criticism.

Especially on something like a short film which is highly unprofitable. You really don't set out to do one to make money. So the big reward is viewer feedback/responses.

I noticed even on VIMEO there are some really great shorts on there that have nearly no comments/responses/likes.

Just wanted to see what you guys think about all this.
 
My first thought was that people have very short attention...

....

....

But seriously, you're right. I can't speak for everyone on this site, but it seems the focus
has shifted from the "art" of film making to the "technical". If you post a question about
depth of field or MXF workflow on Final Cut Pro, the thread is 20 pages long. But post a
short film or doc and ask what people think and the comments are few and far between.

It's not really anyone's fault, it's just where the interest of the members are focused.

Recently someone posted a short film and asked for feedback. The first comment asked what
kind of feedback they were looking for. The general consensus was that you needed to
be specific. Ask about dialog, or composition, or lighting and you'll get good answers, but
just ask for general feedback and you'll be greeted with silence.

My recommendation would be to get as specific as possible. Then as people respond,
expand your questions.

Perhaps you can try a test. Ask for specific feedback about Mafia Tech Support and I'll do
my best to answer. Hopefully we can get some momentum going.

Peter

.
 
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I'm one of the people who doesn't watch these things. Why? More often than not, it's not worth my time. Most people don't put any real effort into it, and in many cases constructive criticism is met with defensiveness and insults. So why bother? And it gets harder and harder as we get more and more inundated with video. So that's why I haven't watched your work, or many other people's. I don't have time, and usually it ends up wasted. Not necessarily on this forum, but it's definitely true of most I visit.
 
Cassius said:
I'm one of the people who doesn't watch these things. Why? More often than not, it's not worth my time. Most people don't put any real effort into it, and in many cases constructive criticism is met with defensiveness and insults. So why bother? And it gets harder and harder as we get more and more inundated with video. So that's why I haven't watched your work, or many other people's. I don't have time, and usually it ends up wasted. Not necessarily on this forum, but it's definitely true of most I visit.
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But I think that if it's put into the User Films section, it deserves to be pulled apart. It needs to be. It's expected to be. If someone wants to just show something off, and they say, "no comments other than praise" then fine. But when I post something in there, I want to hear what people think. I've learned a lot from this site because of the comments in the videos. Something that I loved, others may say, "It looked ok, but the dialogue was weak, and the lighting in xxxx scene was off. Maybe next time try yyyy." Then I know a little more of what to look for. My stuff needs a ton of work, I know. But how will I learn what works/doesn't if no one states their opinion on something? Reading books and watching tutorials, etc will only get me so far. Feedback is what I need once a project is finished. On the last short I posted, I didn't get any replies. In all honesty, "This was drivel because ______." is better than nothing to me.
 
NOT ADDRESSED TO ANY SPECIFIC POSTER.

This is merely an extension of the problem of distribution and exhibition that filmmakers face in the real world. Yes, you can book a theater or put it online, but in both cases, what audience exactly are you expecting to come along and watch it? Have you given them a compelling reason to do so? Have you spent time genuinely participating in this community and fostering relationships? Have you provided feedback for other filmmakers? Getting good feedback in the user films section is predicated upon having an established audience/community that is invested in what you're doing. Why doesn't Cassius care to watch the films that are posted there? In addition to the reasons he gave, I'd suggest its because he doesn't know a thing about the people who made them. There is no investment, no engagement. An audience wants filters, recommendations and trusted "discovery engines" to help them find new films and the users section doesn't provide that. it's a free for all. anyone can post a film. knowing that, the only real way to get responses of any significance there is to have built that audience beforehand.

A great way to get feedback is to enter a DVXFest. By sharing your progress in a thread over the course of production and post, you will have a small community of people that know your project, know what you set out to do, and are therefore... engaged. The last time I entered a DVXFest I received over 100 individual pieces of feedback.
 
Ok, this post got me to go back and watch it - LMAO ! Absolutely loved it. Really well done. Kudos to the cast & crew - Great Job.

Back to the subject of this post. I'm not sure why I missed this. As far as watching shorts in general, Vimeo, Youtube etc are far to crowded to go trolling for something decent to watch. There's a thousand+ bad for every one worth your time. It's like Current TV - a few gems in hours of vomit. Unless I find it on some forum or it's recommended to me I'm gonna miss it.

As far as commenting - MM&I has it right. In general, if I linked from here, I'd probably drop a quick thanks - good job kinda generic response. If it sucked, I'd most likely either not respond at all or point out some specific technical flaw that they could have a hope of correcting. Non-constructive criticism is just mean, and if it sucks, the time/effort to be constructive's just not in me.

If I really enjoyed it, I'd most likely say so. I think most people are like me in this regard. If you get a lot of views and no responses, most likely it sucked. To get anybody to respond, you're gonna have to follow up with specific technical questions to draw them out. If you get a lot of views and a few positives, chances are you've got a real winner. If you're not getting the view count at all - well, that's a marketing issue. Zak does a good job describing some of the hurdles there.

Anyway, I got a real kick out of MTS - Thank you for the opportunity to share it. I know it's hard, but the quantity of feedback you mentioned is actually very good. Unless you get a viral runaway, the internet is not a very good place to get the kind of encouragement that makes us do these things. As far as going viral, I'm actually going to pass this link along to a few friends I know will enjoy it.

Best Wishes & Merry Christmas :beer::beer:
 
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Like Zak said, I'm much more likely to watch a piece if it comes from someone whose previous works I admire; it's more likely that I'll enjoy the viewing experience. If it's from someone I don't know I usually try to give it a shot based on whether I like the cinematography or not. A good looking film will hold my attention somewhat longer than a poorly shot one, but if the story doesn't immediately grab me then I turn it off; if the sound is bad I turn it off. Occasionally I get a film with a good story that's bogged down by technical issues, but these are really rare. The sad thing is that there are just so many poorly constructed shorts out there, both artistically and technically, that it's hard to sift through them all to get at the good ones.
 
I'm guilty of this, but I've also seen a few really great shorts from complete unknowns on youtube. The funny thing is, I've messaged all of them telling them how much I loved their short and how I'd like to spread the word and perhaps purchase some of their work in the future. Only 2 people responded, and both essentially couldn't be bothered talking to me. And I was interested in their work!

I don't expect people to watch my short stuff, especially when they aren't into film. People expect certain things from a short film. They don't want to see the typical "student film" cliches, but they also rarely want to be challenged- even for 10 minutes. For short films, the demand is usually higher to entertain quickly- within the first 30 seconds- otherwise they shut it off. Which is a shame!

But it's always the same thing anyway. When people hear you're making a student film and need some help, they want it to be fun, entertaining, hilarious. People expect you to cater to them, and challenging them is an insult and waste of their time.

Anyway, my philosophy- if you're looking to become an independent film director, and you know that's the only thing you want to do in life, just keep on doing what you're doing. There's no gimmick or trick to success. The best success is having complete artistic freedom.
 
MeAgain said:
They don't want to see the typical "student film" cliches, but they also rarely want to be challenged- even for 10 minutes. For short films, the demand is usually higher to entertain quickly- within the first 30 seconds- otherwise they shut it off. Which is a shame!
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I think that for a short film, grabbing the audience's attention quickly is pretty much mandatory no matter what. You really don't have the luxury of building up your film into a payoff since you only have a few minutes of their time. Being able to hold the audience's interest within the first couple of minutes is a skill which sadly few filmmakers want to acquire. They think that the burden is on the audience to experience "their" work and so you end up with 5 minutes films where the first minute is nothing but fancy opening credits or endless shots of characters doing mundane things to build a "mood." Really, get to the point already!
 
Like the other poster said: it ain't worth it. I used to do detailed analysis of shorts here. More often than not, even if I praised it like 95% and expressed reservation about 5% of it, I'd get lambasted by the person posting their work. When it kept happening over and over again, I just figured "***k it", I'm not doing it anymore. I stopped even visiting that section for over a year now. Then, just recently, I got an email from someone for one of their entries here, so, since there was a personal touch, and a genuine desire, I broke my vow, and watched the entry. It was OK, with some minor flaws, and that's what I pretty much said (and also said I'd watch more work from that crew). Imagine my dismay, when someone not even connected with the project posted a vicious attack on me for daring to not go 100% rah, rah - I mean it was so over the top, I didn't even bother responding. I looked to see who was this dildo, and it was not some random poster, it was a member here who had over a 2000 posts. I mean I had an opinion - and for that I was attacked ("I have no respect for your opinion" etc.) - it was unreal. I immediately regretted spending the time and effort. It just is not worth it. I doubt I will ever again comment on any work here.
 
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Huy Vu said:
I think that for a short film, grabbing the audience's attention quickly is pretty much mandatory no matter what. You really don't have the luxury of building up your film into a payoff since you only have a few minutes of their time. Being able to hold the audience's interest within the first couple of minutes is a skill which sadly few filmmakers want to acquire. They think that the burden is on the audience to experience "their" work and so you end up with 5 minutes films where the first minute is nothing but fancy opening credits or endless shots of characters doing mundane things to build a "mood." Really, get to the point already!
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But the burden is on any audience to experience a work. What's interesting for one audience is not interesting for another, like that old line "You can't please everyone all the time, etc. etc."

So the model of "getting people's attention" is a false one. If filmmakers keep catering to current trends, films will get intensely worse.

I do agree about fancy opening credits or fancy anything really- I don't want people to show off with sweet shots or shoot a lot of slow moving shots just to let me know they got a hold of a professional dolly for a day. But what gets my attention is something completely different. Even if it's slow moving or mundane, if it's some sort of new structure, new point of view, new style then I'm interested.

The shorts that are well produced, look amazing, are succinct- but have flat acting and nothing at all to say about anything- those are the ones I fall asleep during, no matter how well paced. Because they don't say anything real or new, they just show me how well they can execute some established film rules. I think we need shorts that shake up our common ways of thinking about films, ones that are honest and brave and don't cater to an audience.

Point being- I think we stop watching indie shorts and student shorts because we expect the same old stuff. If we started seeing stuff that made us think differently- even if the films turn out to be sort of mess- it'd make us want to see more stuff.
 
MeAgain said:
But the burden is on any audience to experience a work. What's interesting for one audience is not interesting for another, like that old line "You can't please everyone all the time, etc. etc."
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But you also have to take into account that a short film is a different beast than a feature. The very nature of a "short" film is to be able to succinctly and efficiently deliver your story in a relatively brief amount of time. I'm the one watching your film, but it is YOUR responsibility to package your story in such a way that I would want to keep watching. We can argue the fine points of how everyone has different sensibilities, but the reality of it is that in order to be successful, you HAVE to tune in to what the masses wants and be able to relate to the most amount of people that you can. Believe it or not, people's conception of what is "good" is usually pretty similar, or else everybody's film would have an audience of one. And keep in mind that your film can push boundaries and still be captivating, IF you do it right. And that's the line that separates boring experimental works from the innovative ones.
 
GoodLuck said:
It just seems like it's getting harder and harder to get people to watch/comment on a short. Even if it's with a "I think it sucks here's why", I think most filmmakers want some sort of feedback/criticism.
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To be BRUTALLY honest here... I don't think MOST filmmakers really want this! I think MOST filmmakers want an endorsement of their vision, script, and execution... AND on top of that... they want any "mistakes" (in quotes intentionally) to be seen as further artistic vision in doing something unorthodox.

If I take the time to watch a short (which granted, may not be that much time, but the idea is that I'm watching it to COMMENT)... then I would like the creater's interest for REAL, HONEST commentary to be genuine! Not "hey I just want some feedback, positive OR negative... and I don't care which it is... as long as it's not negative".

I've offered honest and good intentioned commentary on a lot of short films... and more often then not, if my comments are not 95% supportive of the film... there's no further discussion on the issues I brought up. It's not satisfying for the viewer (or REVIEWER?) if his time to give it some thought is unappreciated.

I can sit through a bunch of shorts with an assortment of technical and/or logical "mistakes"... and I'm good for a couple sh*t sandwiches... but I'm definitely running low on bread.

EDIT: Wow... I didn't read a single reply before making my own reply... and I see the EXACT same words above... even if 95% supportive... STILL not enough. I did NOT get my 95% from the 95% above... crazy.
 
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I believe it has been said before, but I will reiterate it. At least here, the demographic is slanted severely to the professional side. Not a bad thing, either. But you are showing your work to a group of people who are NOT your average viewers. We are critical viewers, we look at technique, we look at storyline and dialog, we look at how you lit the scene. But on the other hand, we are professionals and if we do see something that doesn't sit right with us, many times we choose not to mention it out of professional courtesy. You never know how somebody will take criticism, if they will feel it is a personal attack or a flaming.

Simple thing to do: Do not say anything.

But you have to take that into consideration. I will tell you, on a personal level, I try not to look at other people's work when I am working on a project of my own. I do not want to influence myself unknowingly. On top of that, if I see something that has issues, I don't like insulting someone else's hard work. The chances are, what they are showing is a final product, with no option for correction. So my giving my opinion of how this or that should of been done this or that way does not help, it just makes me look like a pretentious, armchair film-maker in their eyes. Now if it was a work in progress, maybe my advice or someone else's advice may make a difference. But then we run into the "who is offended by the advice" issue. Each of us has an inner vision of how we think things should be. And sometimes, they differ.

I also refuse to be disingenuous, and just say "Good Job", or "Cool", if I see something that is well, so-so. (Not saying that is the case about your film, as I have not seen it)
 
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Keep in mind that anybody can generally view your film, but only registered users can comment. This may be one reason a film will get lots of views, but only a few comments.
 
I also think some people (no one specific) will post 'brutally honest' comments just because they enjoy being brutal.

Filmmakers are a tough audience. Just like having screenwriters judge your script -- every one of them probably would have done it different. I know I would. And when I read someone's script or see someone's film, my tendency is to think of how I would have done things.

I try to get a lay audience (no jokes please) to view and comment on my film. After all, they're the people who really matter. Not the filmmakers who will see every technical flaw, or the writers who will find every weakness in the story. If it entertains the general audience, then that -- for me -- is the goal.

Of course, the trick is to get a general audience to give you honest feedback. If they don't like it, most of them will smile and tell you they enjoyed it anyway, not wanting to hurt your feelings. Still, it's the audience whose opinion matters to me.
 
Zak's right. This is just an extension of the problem that pros have with distribution. There's an infinite amount of content for us to view on the Internet. If you don't do your bit to promote your hard won work, then why should we go seek it out? Welcome to real (or reel?) world. No one cares as much about your work, as you do. You want audiences and criticism, good and bad? Then seek it out and promote yourself.
 
I gotta agree with several of the people above me. It's been shown to me time and time again that many filmmakers here (supposedly functional adults) don't actually want and aren't actually capable of receiving any kind of criticism, constructive or otherwise. I find it completely baffling, but it seems to be the case. That's a damn shame, because I feel like those sorts of people who probably won't ever contribute very much to the film world (because they will refuse to improve) are poisoning the well for a lot of other good people who genuinely care what people think because they want to hone their craft.

I've made maybe two good friendships from this board; those were both people who actually wanted to discuss their films and what worked and didn't work. I'm grateful I've gotten to meet and collaborate with those people, but to be honest it just doesn't seem worth the effort anymore. I'm getting older – I have less time to watch crap films (not directed at anyone in particular, but we all know most films are crap) and certainly a lot less time to get lambasted or ignored because I spent MY time trying to be thoughtful about a movie's hits and misses. Some people just lack respect, so everyone suffers.
 
Oh boy, Can of Cobras, this thread. I've got some pretty good examples of why I won't comment on people's work. Check out some of the fests! Haha~

I don't want to comment on anything I can't be honest about. It has nothing to do with being harsh and everything to do with being a good Peer. And, far too often I feel like if I'm honest then I'm going to face the gallows; no way, man.

If the forum begins to grow thicker skin and people show that they can take constructive and honest criticism that's not mean-spirited, I'm sure more people will comment and great discussions can be had about technical and non-technical merits about user generated content.

It's almost happened a few times, but in the end things got REAL sour once footage was released. Oh the Sagas.
 
Some people want to learn and will listen and appreciate good advice, but like so many have pointed out, a lotof people just want a pat of the back and a "well done" in place of honesty. They seem to forget that we all know what they've been through and we know how hard it was to pull it off... so most of our criticisms are valid and not just being mean. For me I learn a HELL of a lot from every single review and I intend to never make those same mistakes again. Damn the pat on the back. Let me know what's wrong so I can mix it.

Those that don't want to know what's wrong, they're just in the wrong place.
 
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