Scene File Settings - "TANG"

fevercity

Well-known member
Pics, Digits, Paint Chip, then Details..... {*uses WHITE-BALANCE fakeout}.....
Single jpeg's to follow....


TANG_web_1.jpg


Scene File: TANG

DETAIL -3
V. DETAIL 0
DTL. CORING +2
CHROMA LVL -7
CHROMA PHASE -3
COLOR TEMP -5
MASTER PED -7
A. IRIS -2
GAMMA CineLike
KNEE n/a
MATRIX NORM
SKIN DTL OFF
V DTL. THIN
24p


HARBOR_4_web.jpg



White-Balance from one sample of a BEHR paint color chip card (free from Home Depot).... It's a 4-color card from the 520F line. The 2nd color from the top is "520F-5 HARBOR". It's sort of a blue-ish green.

I'd zero'ed in on 520F-5 HARBOR as a paint-chip WHT BAL fake for a different Scene File. I'd shot enough that I thought I'd post "TANG" in the meantime. It's been a while since my last settings recipe, so forgive the rambling.

Just FYI - the idea behind using a paint chip or color to white balance is to push the camera's spectrum around in a way that you can't do by simply adjusting PHASE and TEMP in the menu. My goal (usually) is to totally freak out the colorspace and bring it back around towards somewhat normal. What seems like only a subtle difference in paint colors or art cards can produce wildly different results in-camera. IF you tweak in post then tweak in post. I do that too. There is a reason this thread is prefixed "Scene File Setting....". It's pretty obvious.

The idea was to cook up a somewhat contrasty, autumnal, late afternoon warm look that bent towards yellow. Believe it or not, "TANG" does not bend towards yellow. Shot a batch and put them up on the old Tektronix 1740 scopes / waveform. "TANG" falls into a weird area between red and yellow - somewhat of a coral kind of orangey-pinkish fusion. Because the white-balance has shifted so dramatically, it behaves differently depending on exposure and colors in-frame. No surprises there but it ended up looking more like TANG than the intended October cornfield gold.

Individual jpeg's will follow since the comp pic doesn't fully show how weird the colors could get. If you take COLOR TEMP all he way down to -7, it's pure California Orange Crush psychadelia.

As always, any and all input appreciated. Thanks for looking!
 
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Thanks, Dory!... For these kind words and for those on the "CyBlue" settings too.

I guess the real challenge for "TANG" would be coming up with scenes where it might be used. A friend described it as 'post-apocalyptic'. I was thinking more along the lines of a Sunny D commercial. Maybe Valtrex - you know, "Life is great! Even though I have genital herpes!". No, not me, the commercials.

I, honestly, have no idea where these settings could be used.
 
Great Research FeverCity! upon getting such silver screen-able jems ...

I need to ask you a few questions:

Assumptions: I want to achieve various looks 'without' changing a few file-settings. I only want to tweak Chroma and Color-Temp. settings with Fake-WhiteBalance. Do follow the thread: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=111384&highlight=Cool+Noise+Reduction

My Constant Settings:
DETAIL = -7
V. DETAIL = 0
DTL. CORING = 0
A. IRIS -2
GAMMA = CineLike
KNEE = n/a
MATRIX = CineLike
SKIN DTL = OFF
V DTL. = THIN
Mode = 24P/25P


My Questions:
1- Am I right by keeping things constant ? (As you're also keeping some settings constant too)
2- Can I achieve all your looks via keeping above mentioned settings constant?
3- Why don't u choose CineLike matrix in all your compositions?
4- Do you follow the 'Cool-Noise Reduction Technique' thread to remove magenta highlight issue in WB?
5- What is your opinion about that noise-reduction thread?
6- Tweaking file settings may get you the look you want but may introduce enough noise like magenta-highlight and high-detail edges?


Note: I'm looking for the highest quality DVX footage while making in-camera look all the time. High-Quality means lowest possible edge-details (may also include master-ped) and magenta-highlight due to lack of proper RGB clipping.
 
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Hey, Haroon Ghauree.

Thanks for looking and I think I can answer all your questions without going point-by-point because they're all somewhat inter-related.

Many of my settings are pretty constant that deal with contrast, gamma and detail. Since the last several 'effects' looks have been heavy on color tweaking, those haven't changed much. I provide all of the digits for the scene file settings to show exactly what was being used to create the footage in the frame grabs. I didn't want the settings to appear incomplete.

I don't often choose CineLike for MATRIX for these scene files because I'm already messing w/ the chroma so much. Adding CineLike on top of some of the white-balance craziness and TEMP & PHASE variables can push the color even farther, crazier and noisier.

Regarding the 'Cool-Noise Reduction Technique', I think Chris has done an excellent job of researching the issue and providing a solid workaround. Since I'm talking about crazy white-balance trickery, noise could be a concern for some people. However, it's kinda hard to have magenta highlight issues when there's hardly any magenta left in the color palette of the shot. I'm not seeing high-detail edges any more than usual.

Sounds like noise is a major concern for you. I'm a little forgiving when it comes to footage that's affected this heavily. Adjusting TEMP and PHASE can increase noise. After seeing this footage on a broadcast monitor, I don't think it's unacceptable. Ultimately, it's evaluating how serious the noise is doing in-camera manipulation and whether that's enough of a deal-breaker for you.

I've read elsewhere that the CineLike MATRIX can introduce noise in low-light conditions. Also - I'm curious why you'd need your detail all the way down at -7. Seems a little soft to me.

Anyway - hope this has helped somewhat and let me know if I can help out further.
 
Many of my settings are pretty constant that deal with contrast, gamma and detail. Since the last several 'effects' looks have been heavy on color tweaking, those haven't changed much. I provide all of the digits for the scene file settings to show exactly what was being used to create the footage in the frame grabs. I didn't want the settings to appear incomplete.

The GAMMA, KNEE, and AUTO IRIS settings all have to do with the contrast and exposure. I see these as tied together. If you switch any of these, you'll end up with a slightly different look. Changing from B.PRESS to CINELIKE will get you a lower contrast and very different look, for instance.

I don't often choose CineLike for MATRIX for these scene files because I'm already messing w/ the chroma so much. Adding CineLike on top of some of the white-balance craziness and TEMP & PHASE variables can push the color even farther, crazier and noisier.

TEMP, PHASE, MATRIX are similarly tied together. You can't really change these without changing the look, and CINELIKE is almost always over the top in terms of saturation. It's hard to get legal levels out of the camera, even in NORM matrix. CINELIKE is off the charts.

I've read elsewhere that the CineLike MATRIX can introduce noise in low-light conditions. Also - I'm curious why you'd need your detail all the way down at -7. Seems a little soft to me.

So, the last batch of related settings are DETAIL, V.DETAIL, CORING, which will all effect sharpness and noise. These don't seem to be really tied to the looks fevercity is putting out. These settings are the most available to tweak to your own taste while still getting the same color pallete and contrast.

My expreience is that -7 isn't necessarily an extreme DETAIL setting (even though it's as extreme as you can get in-camera). At -7 it seems that whatever is in focus is in focus, and everything else isn't. isn't that what most people are looking for? The projects I have shot at -7 DETAIL are the ones people tell me most look like film. Especially if you check out the BLUE channel during color correction, you can really see how -7 results in much smoother colors and less blocky and nasty sharpening. It may get a little soft in wide shots, I'll admit that, but the close-ups are so smooth!

Also, Haroon, if you are looking for low noise, you absolutely must use your CORING setting. Set it to +7 and a lot of noise will go away. CORING defines a threshold the sharpening engine uses to decide what to sharpen and what not to sharpen. Set the threshold high and less of the noise gets sharpened. This is a must! Usually, I've seen people adjust DETAIL and CORING in tandem. If you use -4 DETAIL, you use -4 CORING as well, but it's all subject to taste.

Those extreme white balance techniques to achieve low noise seem highly impractical to me, especially considering I've never ever seen magenta highlights. I light well, expose properly, and white balance correctly, and I just haven't seen them.
 
Hey, overlord. I actually didn't use a wide-angle at all. That's the stock lens all the way wide.

It's actually out in center field of a decent-sized park (Congress Park) here in Denver. That tower and building are part of one of the Comm Centers for the city.
 
Thanks, Joshua (as always) for your input. It is appreciated. All the more reason to pay a re-visit to the DETAIL settings (both LVL and CORING). I've seen elsewhere that you're comfortable at -7 and up (+7) on CORING too. Now I'm curious to experiment there again.

I think we're on the same page regarding the elaborate white-balance techniques to avoid noise. I have not really seen magenta highlights nor have I seen noise that would call for such extreme measures to avoid it.

Beyond that, it's good hearing about other people's workflow. As for this particular scene file, I still have no clue what anyone could use it for. Flashback? Trippy music video sequence? No idea......
 
Great going FeverCity & Joshua! You guys are doing excellent job. I admire you both on giving such minor but critical insight into scene-file settings. So let me rephrase my understandings here.

I want a pure optical miracle out of DVX100B. By pure I mean the least possible digital enhancements and noise to the footage. At the same time I want to achieve 100% in-camera look i.e. almost no post-production enhancements either in color-correction or in cleaning-noise before or after 16:9 upraise.

Considering the above goal(s) I'm looking for the scene-file constants and variables. By constant I mean those settings which will remain unchanged in my whole life (as a filmmaker :D ) and by variable I mean those settings which I can confidently (without introducing any digital noise or enhancement what-so-ever) tweak to achieve a desired in-camera look.

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My Desired CONSTANTS , Pure VARIABLES and Restricted VARIABLES (Do correct me if I'm wrong here):

DETAIL = -7
V. DETAIL = ? (CONFUSED)
DETAIL CORING = +7

CHROMA LEVEL = -7 .. 0 .. +7
CHROMA PHASE = -7 .. 0 .. +7
COLOR TEMP. = -7 .. 0 .. +7
MASTER PED. = -5/-6/-7
A. IRIS = -2/-3
GAMMA = CineLike
KNEE = ? (CONFUSED)
MATRIX = CineLike/CineLike-V/CineLike-D
SKIN DTL. = OFF
V. DTL. FREQUENCY = THIN
MODE = PROGRESSIVE (24P/25P)


CAMERA SETUP = 0%/7.5% (PADESTAL SETTING FOUND IN CAMERA SETUP MENU)
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I also need the answers to the following questions:
Q1. Which one is better Manual WB or Preset WB ?
Q2. Does Detail Coring = +7 mean no digital enhancement what-so-ever ?
Q3. Does tweaking with Chroma Phase/Level and Color Temp. introduce any kind of digital noise ?
Q4. Can I apply Q3. to manual WB ?
Q5. DVX manual suggests to change settings after WB. Why can't I simply finalize a scene-file and then WB after selecting it ? Won't latter-WB creates the similar in-camera look as it was in the first place ?
Q6. Also the Pedestal Setup found in Camera Setup Menu. What's its relationship with Master Ped. in settings ?

One More Confusion:
Q. Is In-Camera Squeeze (16:9) applied to uncompressed DV footage ? (To get the best 16:9 up-raise out of DVX)
 
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Not to be overly blunt but you kinda hijacked a scene file setting thread with some pretty major technical questions. This really needs to be its own post elsewhere.

The first and most obvious question is why would you want to restrict yourself to "settings which will remain unchanged in {your} whole life"? Once you gain some more confidence with the DVX, I think you'll be more comfortable changing them as each situation presents itself.

1. Manual
2. No
3. Yes
4. You have to - PRESET WB won't allow PHASE altering
5. I haven't seen / read this
6. They both affect your PEDESTAL (blacks).
7. In-camera squeeze does not give you the best 16:9 up-rez.
 
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