Scarlet Announcement

landogarner said:
They are modular.... It promises massive long term savings. The module that houses the sensor is completely seperate and upgradeable. This opens up the possibility to affordably upgrade your sensor every couple years, not having to buy and learn a new camera system every time the new flavor of the month comes out, owning mulitple sensor modules and interchanging them like lenses etc.

I think you seriously underestimate the impact this modular system is going to have on the market.
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Yeah, but -- while that sounds nice on paper, how will it work in reality?

Look at the Red One: OBSOLESCENCE OBSOLETE, they said. Now, two years later, the Red One itself is being discontinued, totally replaced by the Epic. They've announced that the Red One is end-of-line. It was supposed to be the last camera anyone would ever need, yet it didn't even last past two years before being totally supplanted.

How has modularity worked out in other industries? Look at computers -- I was way sold on the Lenovo line because I got the dock, the interchangeable bay battery and hard drive system, etc. So when looking to upgrade, I of course look to Lenovo to see what the newest is, so I can re-use all my gear. And the W510 is looking quite tasty -- but guess what? It needs a new dock. It draws more power and can't be used with my current dock. So there's a $350 accessory that gets thrown out the window. And, oh yeah, the bay battery won't work either. New quad-core chips, different power requirements, whatever, doesn't matter, my bay battery won't work on the new system.

I'm sure we have many folks here who can testify to buying into a "modular" concept, only to find out that the original design wasn't as forward-thinking or didn't provide as much capability as originally thought.

In an industry where the Scarlet has (to many people) become obsolete before it's even been released, and Noktor goes from announcing their product to being called a vaporware scam IN JUST FOUR DAYS, just how much longevity will there be to this particular modular design? (Lots, I hope, as I plan on buying it...) but realistically -- has this concept worked anywhere else before? Anyone have any examples? It's an idea that's been talked about a lot, in a lot of industries; heck, look at power tools, manufacturers standardized around one particular type of battery (and yes, I bought a Leaf Hog and an Edge Hog and the tree-trimming-chainsaw-hog thing, all because they use the same battery) but I don't really expect that five years from now Black & Decker will be offering the same batteries, for whatever reason. Maybe what you had was 12v, and all the new batteries are 14v, or 18v, or smaller, or they've replaced Li-Ion with lead-acid or the other way around, or whatever.

But to expect that really, this time, this modular system will be the end-all-and-be-all? I hope to be wrong, because I'm gonna spend a lot on it, but frankly I am not counting on it lasting beyond the one initial design and purchase. If it does, great -- all the better. But in general, life just doesn't work that way.
 
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continuing with what barry said as far as making obsolescence obsolete, wouldn't everything about the product have to become the standard? and then it would only be until a new standard is released. USB is a great port for a computer--nearly everything uses it, but it'll eventually be replaced with something better and faster. RED is a company, just like any other, that is constantly searching for ways to improve upon itself, which is probably the reason for all of the delays. A new feature creates another new feature, which creates another new feature, etc. At some point, you've just got to stop and go with it. Keep that development going for the next model (there will be more models). It's great that they have this interchangeable and upgradeable system, so you can swap out the internals, but what happens if they come up with external improvements--a better system for latching modules together, better heat management, or just better ergonomics?

all that said, it will probably be all the camera i'll need for quite some time.
 
Homunculus said:
are you guys referring to usb 3.0, how fast is that supposed to be exactly?
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theroretically it's 5 GBit/s, but even 2.0 never reached it's theoretical performance.
It's said to be 5 times faster than 2.0, somewhere between 2 and 3 Gbit/s but that'll depend on other hardware factors as well
 
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Barry_Green said:
In an industry where the Scarlet has (to many people) become obsolete before it's even been released, and Noktor goes from announcing their product to being called a vaporware scam IN JUST FOUR DAYS, just how much longevity will there be to this particular modular design? (Lots, I hope, as I plan on buying it...) but realistically -- has this concept worked anywhere else before? Anyone have any examples? It's an idea that's been talked about a lot, in a lot of industries; heck, look at power tools, manufacturers standardized around one particular type of battery (and yes, I bought a Leaf Hog and an Edge Hog and the tree-trimming-chainsaw-hog thing, all because they use the same battery) but I don't really expect that five years from now Black & Decker will be offering the same batteries, for whatever reason. Maybe what you had was 12v, and all the new batteries are 14v, or 18v, or smaller, or they've replaced Li-Ion with lead-acid or the other way around, or whatever.
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Dammit this guy's good. Very good points Mr. Green. Very good points indeed.
 
remember me?
redscarlet.jpg
 
unfortunately for the scarlet, the game has changed since it was first announced.

think about it, a couple of years ago you would have thought i was crazy if i told you that you could have a camera that shoots 1080p at 24 fps with interchangeable lenses and takes 18mp stills for a mere $899. now it's a reality and just the beginning of what's to come.

although the scarlet is a great deal relative to what more expensive cameras go for, the cost will put it out of the reach for most of the little guys and people just starting out. i don't think the people at red realized how quickly the market would evolve and now find themselves with a camera that seems somewhat out of place.
i'm still excited to see what they come up with, but it doesn't look like it will have the impact we once thought it would.
 
But when you consider the fact that the 1080 24p camera that shoots 18megapixels, published to a H.264 compressed codec, and has audio capabilites of null, Scarlet still will have the advantage
 
But not at the same pricepoint.

The price of Scarlet has slowly crept upwards, and when you start adding in the ProAudio I/O, extra batteries, handles and grips, and all the other bells and whistles to really make ready for a longer shoot you're probably looking at $8 - $10K and upwards. That puts it in a totally different ballpark than the current crop of DSLRs.

It will be interesting to see how Scarlet plays once it's actually available, because if it's sold en masse like Red expect it had better be bulletproof. Red was released as a camera in beta but people understood that going in. Scarlet won't have that luxury.
 
Except these 1080p cameras are out, Scarlet isn't, and who knows when it will be? Obviously the company can't be trusted with their proposed release dates, so even if it comes out, say, at the end of 2010, we don't know what else Canon/Panasonic/Sony/JVC will release around that time. We also don't know just how well Scarlet will truly preform or what the specs will truly be. Will there be zero glitches, and the camera perfectly perform everything promised? Until they actually, finally, deliver, it's impossible to actually compare. Or, if Canon/Sony/Panny/JVC decided to tell us what they plan on releasing in about a year or so in the $5.000+ range we could compare Scarlet to that.

The other issue is that despite all the hair splitting by people like us, most people think the QT h.264 codec on the Canons looks fine, and can be pushed enough in post (remember Philip Bloom's trip to Skywalker Ranch and what Lucas and QT thought?) and there have been plenty of workarounds with the audio.
 
Barry_Green said:
Yeah, but -- while that sounds nice on paper, how will it work in reality?

Look at the Red One: OBSOLESCENCE OBSOLETE, they said. Now, two years later, the Red One itself is being discontinued, totally replaced by the Epic. They've announced that the Red One is end-of-line. It was supposed to be the last camera anyone would ever need, yet it didn't even last past two years before being totally supplanted.
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Your drastically misinformed. The RED One has not been EOL'd, quite the opposite.
Your opinion is well respected so you'd do well to check your facts before making statements like that man.

MX turns the Red One into essentially a new camera (If you havent shot on MX don't disagree with me)

And Red have stated that the One is not being discontinued that it will most likely be offered as an MX ready from the factory camera.

It has also been offered as a full price trade in against the Epic, which in essence means your upgrading to a brand new camera without any financial hit.

Very misinformed.
 
JayGannon said:
Your drastically misinformed. The RED One has not been EOL'd, quite the opposite.
Your opinion is well respected so you'd do well to check your facts before making statements like that man.
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I am always about checking facts. Jim Jannard himself is the one who said that production of the Red One will be discontinued. Now, I guess it's possible that with "everything subject to change... count on it" that something might have changed, but I'm going off what I read from the leader himself. Has that been changed?

MX turns the Red One into essentially a new camera (If you havent shot on MX don't disagree with me)
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Agreed. But they still said they're going to discontinue production of it. They'll support the old ones, but they're not making any more new ones after the Epic ships. Unless, of course, that's changed...

And Red have stated that the One is not being discontinued that it will most likely be offered as an MX ready from the factory camera.
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That's different from what they said before. Do you have a link to that statement?

It has also been offered as a full price trade in against the Epic, which in essence means your upgrading to a brand new camera without any financial hit.
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Right -- the reason it's being offered as a trade-in, is because it's discontinued. It can't be upgraded any further, so they want to discontinue that line and start over with the Epic.

Very misinformed.
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Well, if I'm misinformed, can I at least point you to the post that "misinformed" me?
Jannard said:
There will be an end to the RED ONE... production that is. We learned that it wasn't infinitely upgradeable as we had originally thought. That's why we have given all RED ONE owners a chance at full trade in allowance towards the EPIC system.

Having said that, there are many who want to keep as continue to use their R1s. We will support the RED ONE for many years to come. It changed history and deserves proper respect from all of us at RED.
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That post was from Jim Jannard on October 16, 2009. You can see the thread here:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=36366

So how was I misinformed? Has that policy been changed in a more recent post?
 
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http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=599699&postcount=12

C.A. - logistically, no problem. From a customer loyalty standpoint, we want to make sure early RED ONE adopters get a chance to get the sensor in their cameras first before a new customer could get a new RED ONE with an M-X sensor.

BC
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There is also a Monstro upgrade path for the Red One.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=605133&postcount=39
You can trade in an unexecuted RED ONE for a FF35 Monstro Epic (Brain only) for full R1 value.
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At any rate my point was that the One even if production halts is still upgradable in that MX sensor, and there will possible be more upgrades in the way of tech from Epic going to the One also.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=604347&postcount=45

Yes.. the R1 is modular in terms of media.. and we are working on a few ways to use the SSD's on R1. Of course the pipes in the R1 will not be able to take advantage of the increased speeds that media is capable of, but they can mimic the current R1 options. The new 64GB CF card of course just works in the normal side CF slot everyone has now.
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Hardly a camera that has been EoL'd which means they are not producing, not supporting and not encouraging people to buy or use in a production setting.

End of Life:

End-of-life (EOL) is a term used with respect to a retailed product, indicating that the product is in the end of its product lifetime and a vendor will no longer be marketing, selling, or promoting a particular product and may also be limiting or ending support for the product.
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End-of-life (EOL) is a term used with respect to a retailed product, indicating that the product is in the end of its product lifetime and a vendor will no longer be marketing, selling, or promoting a particular product and may also be limiting or ending support for the product.
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I think the word 'may' is the key here.
As soon as Epic starts shipping, Red One will no longer be sold, according to RED.
It will be supported, as Jannard said... it will even be upgradeable for those who still own them....and it will be able to be traded in for the full value towards an Epic. But RED will no longer be marketing, selling or promoting the RedOne (the three conditions outlined in the definition you quoted).

At least, that has been their stance thus far as most everyone seems to understand it (and as Barry posted above).
 
You know, I don’t really have a problem with that. Yes, they said “never obsolete”, but that’s just sales hype. If they are allowing trade-in’s, I say great..

The problem I have area all the unfulfilled promises on gear and release dates, especially after all the hype on Scarlet. It’s just embarrassing at this point.
 
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