Scarlet Announcement
- Thread starter Max Smith
- Start date
Stephen Mick
Totally Usable
Exactly.
If you want to see how a certain camera performs in certain conditions, sack up and do it yourself. And if you're half the bloke Bloom is, you'll share your results with the class.
ethan cooper
Well-known member
sure, feeling that way is fine, but speaking it out loud in a public forum makes you sound like a jerk.
Red themselves will give you the 'proper' footage, let Bloom give you the 'what the rest of us will be shooting' footage.
stephenvv
Well-known member
No argument as I was only talking about still mode to illustrate deBayering.
But having shot a bunch now with my 7D the resolution is a puzzle. It often looks sharper than my HV30 ever was but sometime looks softer - all without obvious aliasing effects. And when aliasing is obvious, it does look fugly but other times looks near as sharp as EX1.
I'm guessing the 7D and other video DSLRs have "variable resolution" depending on how much aliasing, angle to pixels binning, how much false detail etc. is going on in a given frame, focal length, line angle etc.
So the 2/3" Scarlet should win the resolution battle - but it would be a much better battle if the basic kit was $3000 not $4750. That's not a revolution, that's just competition.
Jason Ramsey
Admin
There are a variety of uses for a camera, and what you want to see may not be relevant to everyone else. This is why charts are useful. People taking it out and shooting all kinds of random stuff can be useful. People using it on a film set can be useful. Using it in eng settings can be useful.
personally, I'll take anything and everything I can get vs. "unless you only shoot this, it's pointless".
Later,
Jason
Chamber005
Carbonite Member
Man, PB is my shizzel. He is on a short list of 5 people in the entire online DV community whose opinion I actually trust.
But again, I still think the greatest thing about the coming Scarlet will be its affect on the rest of the cameras (both used and new) out there. Even if there's only a handful of people who are able to really effectively stretch the Scarlet to its greatest capacity, other companies will have to take notice and will then have to (really) compete.
Personally I think the Scarlet will lead to a direct price drop on EX1s and 5DIIs. I think a lot of people will be selling off these cams to grab the new Scarlets -- which will be a huge impact on the indie community overall.
No matter what, Scarlet = awesome.
Jason Ramsey
Admin
not necessarily. The purpose of charts is to find the potential short comings of any camera, and also where it might shine in relation to others.
At what point does aliasing begin, is there any funkiness going on with how it renders patterns, etc, etc, etc.
We're probably looking at potentially 2.3. to 2.5k of resolved detail. How much of that will be useable, etc.
laer,
jason
stephenvv
Well-known member
Well, you can think that but I'm seeing almost no evidence of that. If Scarlet 2/3" were shipping today, I can't see myself dumping my 7D for it. I don't want a fixed lens and $5000 for a set of primes puts it near $10k.
The S35 Scarlet is the interesting cam but pricing already looks to put it out of reach for me (where as EX1, 5D are all within range).
So unless you've got evidence to back up that "a lot of people will sell to get a Scarlet" - meaning lots of people will give up FF or S35 sensor with interchangeble lens for 2/3" sensor with fixed lens, I think the jury is out.
No matter what, Scarlet = expensive
Jason Ramsey
Admin
I guess it depends on what you compare it to.
Again, keeping in mind that it doesn't bother me in the least that it's a 2/3" sensor... When, I look at the specs, it looks stupidly cheap to me. One man's expensive, is another man's bargain I guess.
but, then... I wouldn't compare it to a 7d in terms of features and performance, so a 7d is not my benchmark for determining the "value" of a Scarlet.
ethan cooper
Well-known member
amen, amen, and amen.
I'm not even sure I can drop the cash on a Scarlet, but I've been around the business long enough to know $6,000 to $10,000 is crazy cheap for the supposed image quality you'll get with one.
chrislancaster
Active member
William_Robinette
Yes, but until you hold it how can you be sure of the way it handles? You are making assumptions based on a picture.
O.K. I cant assume things? If I look at a puffer fish I'm probably going to assume that it is uncomfortable to handle.
What is a good kit? 3K to CF cards with 24/48k dual channel audio + power, control, and monitoring seems solid to me
2.8 inch screen my eyes are not that good. Need an Upgrade
Have you ever posted R3D's? I have. It's easy. It was easy 12 months ago, and we are still 6 months out.
Then why would anyone buy a Red Rocket. I doubt people are dropping 5 grand on a card because they are frivolous spenders.
Are you suggesting camera makers stay still so as to not disturb the waters?
No. Im suggesting things get confusing and mixed up after 2 years worth of announcements
Remains to be seen, but Jarred said himself they were fantastic glass. Do you think he would make statements like that if they weren't?
Jarred works for RED he's not going to say wow, we really F this glass up.
Again, true. But you can understand why.
Have you used RED? It has it's problems for sure, but if you learn it like any other camera system I think one finds it is really not any harder. It is just different.
RED One is 3.2K in 4K mode, and they have now released a 4.5K mode. Until you have seen 3K from scarlet projected I don't think you can really say if it is soft or not. And show me any 1080p camera that is resolving all that is stated. If it is I would bet you the aliasing would make it unusable.
Yes, but until you hold it how can you be sure of the way it handles? You are making assumptions based on a picture.
O.K. I cant assume things? If I look at a puffer fish I'm probably going to assume that it is uncomfortable to handle.
What is a good kit? 3K to CF cards with 24/48k dual channel audio + power, control, and monitoring seems solid to me
2.8 inch screen my eyes are not that good. Need an Upgrade
Have you ever posted R3D's? I have. It's easy. It was easy 12 months ago, and we are still 6 months out.
Then why would anyone buy a Red Rocket. I doubt people are dropping 5 grand on a card because they are frivolous spenders.
Are you suggesting camera makers stay still so as to not disturb the waters?
No. Im suggesting things get confusing and mixed up after 2 years worth of announcements
Remains to be seen, but Jarred said himself they were fantastic glass. Do you think he would make statements like that if they weren't?
Jarred works for RED he's not going to say wow, we really F this glass up.
Again, true. But you can understand why.
Have you used RED? It has it's problems for sure, but if you learn it like any other camera system I think one finds it is really not any harder. It is just different.
RED One is 3.2K in 4K mode, and they have now released a 4.5K mode. Until you have seen 3K from scarlet projected I don't think you can really say if it is soft or not. And show me any 1080p camera that is resolving all that is stated. If it is I would bet you the aliasing would make it unusable.
Somone mentioned 4:2:2 color. the Scarlet will output 4:4:4 in raw mode. Plus Gigabit Ethernet or Wireless for camera control and transfering files from the CF cards. Gps and that other stuff for recording tilt and direction and can be included in the metadata.
Things not included in current cameras from the others. It will also do 1080x60p, the holy grail for those doing syndicated live action shows. All at no extra charge. And last time I checked, CF cards are still a lot cheaper then P2.
I'm also sure RedRock and others will have 35mm adaptors out in no time if that is what you need.
Things not included in current cameras from the others. It will also do 1080x60p, the holy grail for those doing syndicated live action shows. All at no extra charge. And last time I checked, CF cards are still a lot cheaper then P2.
I'm also sure RedRock and others will have 35mm adaptors out in no time if that is what you need.
chrislancaster
Active member
It's not red but AJA maybe...i dont know just a thought
Barry_Green
Moderator
Well, resolution is fixed -- it can resolve what it can resolve. But aliasing is "false resolution" -- and that is what leads to the variable results.
Yeah, but -- it also does 150fps! It also takes stereo input. It also has the ability to send a separate monitor output while keeping the onboard working. Plus pure resolution, no aliasing, more dynamic range, etc.
I mean, don't get me wrong -- I think the Scarlet will have many features that will make it much more desirable in many ways over a DSLR! But the question I haven't settled on is... will people be willing to pay more for it, 3x more, and give up their cinema-shallow DOF... I have no question whatsoever that the Scarlet will be a superior camera to all the SLRs in terms of sharpness, image quality, and dynamic range.
But is the 2/3" vs. 35mm a dealbreaker? Or is the prospect of cheap 35mm with problems, a more tantalizing prospect than relatively problem-free 2/3", especially when the 2/3" costs 3x as much?
Just curious as to what the feeling is among DVXUsers...
Barry_Green
Moderator
Not just charts, but footage too. Assuming it operates similarly to the Red One, and I have no reason to think it doesn't.
stephenvv
Well-known member
Stupidly cheap compared to what? I was responding to someone saying EX1, 5D MkII's, GH1s and 7D would be dumped for Scarlets. It's clearly not stupidly cheap compared to those.
It's only stupidly cheap compared to $20k cam - that buys a pretty nice 2/3" camera these days.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Not necessarily! Depends on what it actually does (which, of course, we still don't know the full extent) and what it would cost to do that with other equipment.
How many DSLRs can shoot 150fps? How many video cameras can shoot 150fps? Scarlet might be the cheapest 150fps camera on the market.
How many 2/3" cameras are on the market at anywhere less than $8,000? Scarlet's half that.
So for what it is, it could be argued that it's dirt cheap.
I can see where you're coming from, in that compared to an SLR it's expensive, but -- an SLR is a very, very, very limited piece of equipment, so is it a fair comparison to put an SLR up against a 150fps variable-frame-rate 3K alias-free product that actually records stereo sound onboard with proper connectors and no AGC?
I think the Scarlet is pretty darn cheap for what it is. I just don't know if it's what the DVXUsers want; if the chip size and cost is going to be "worth it" versus the current love affair with the DSLRs.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Whoa nelly there -- that's a very misleading statement.
4:4:4 -- as per what? As for 3K? No way. As for 2K? I don't think so. At 720p? Maybe.
Just because the codec is 4:4:4, doesn't mean that you'll get footage with 4:4:4 color sampling in it. I think Graeme Nattress claims that the Red One delivers 3.2:1.6:1.6. (or some other odd ratio). It's pretty commonly accepted that the best you can get out of a Bayer sensor is 4:2:0. So you'd have to go to 1/4 res to get 4:4:4, and that would mean 1500 wide, which would mean 720p.