jonpais
Well-known member
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S1H Braw vs ProRes RAW
- Thread starter jonpais
- Start date
Well done video. For me though, the feature of BRAW that overshadows Prores RAW above all else is that it is recorded internally on BM cameras, meaning you don't have to rig an external monitor for data, power and mount. You can do it all with just a SDXC card.
He's wrong though about true 16 bit raw recording not existing; Red or Sony, raw from the AXS-R5 or AXS-R7 recorder on the F55 or Venice are true 16 bit linear wavelet recording, not the same as 16 bit raw Sony advertises for A7SIII which is DCT transformed to 12 bit.
He's wrong though about true 16 bit raw recording not existing; Red or Sony, raw from the AXS-R5 or AXS-R7 recorder on the F55 or Venice are true 16 bit linear wavelet recording, not the same as 16 bit raw Sony advertises for A7SIII which is DCT transformed to 12 bit.
jonpais
Well-known member
ARRI, RED, Z CAM and Canon cinema cameras all shoot RAW internally as well - but how is that of any use to the Lumix S1H owner trying to decide between an Atomos Ninja V or Blackmagic Design Video Assist 12G?
Anyone shooting RAW HDR with a mirrorless camera will absolutely require an external monitor anyhow.
Not to mention that many of those V90 cards you recommend are notoriously expensive, making an external monitor/SSD solution suddenly start to look increasingly more attractive.
For example, the Angelbird 256GB AV Pro Mk 2 UHS-II SDXC - approved for use with the Pocket 6K for 6K BRAW 5:1 - runs a whopping USD $400.00, while a Samsung SSD 1TB 860 PRO or equivalent sells for a very affordable $200. I think it's safe to say you'll want to take along more than just one 256GB card for an entire day's shoot in BRAW. hehe
So it turns out that there's nothing at all inherently superior about BRAW recorded either internally on a Blackmagic cinema camera or externally on a mirrorless camera. After all, if a cinema camera is required, most high-end productions will choose to shoot ARRI or RED; while for mirrorless shooters, the Ninja V/ProRes RAW solution currently supports no fewer than 30 different cameras.
Anyone shooting RAW HDR with a mirrorless camera will absolutely require an external monitor anyhow.
Not to mention that many of those V90 cards you recommend are notoriously expensive, making an external monitor/SSD solution suddenly start to look increasingly more attractive.
For example, the Angelbird 256GB AV Pro Mk 2 UHS-II SDXC - approved for use with the Pocket 6K for 6K BRAW 5:1 - runs a whopping USD $400.00, while a Samsung SSD 1TB 860 PRO or equivalent sells for a very affordable $200. I think it's safe to say you'll want to take along more than just one 256GB card for an entire day's shoot in BRAW. hehe
So it turns out that there's nothing at all inherently superior about BRAW recorded either internally on a Blackmagic cinema camera or externally on a mirrorless camera. After all, if a cinema camera is required, most high-end productions will choose to shoot ARRI or RED; while for mirrorless shooters, the Ninja V/ProRes RAW solution currently supports no fewer than 30 different cameras.
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Thomas Smet
Veteran
Except SD card isn't the only solution. We can shoot to the same affordable SSD. While the SSD is external and connected via USB-C cable it plays back on the screen and is fully controlled by the camera as if it was internal. Its also considerably smaller to attach to the camera. So realistically compared to a large external monitor it is internal due to how it is controlled. The SD card is just one other alternative for BMD users if they truly want to be ultra compact. Plus some of the smaller BRAW formats like 12:1 and 8:1 work on much slower SD cards. This formats are fine for YouTube vlogging or less image quality critical things like seminars.
I really think the above comment was more in line with the formats in general and how much of an advantage BMD has over every DSLR adding external raw support. I mean if one really wants a cinema camera that can shoot raw why even bother with a DSLR? The entire point of a DSLR was always hybrid shooting. For those that need video and stills. For a film maker however I'm wondering just why we keep buying DSLRs if many never shoot a single still photo. DSLRs were our only realistic solution at one point but that is not exactly true anymore.
Realistically I wonder how many people who own a hybrid DSLR actually have a need for raw to go to this hassle? We have had superior recording with external recorders for a decade and most never saw much value to justify the hassle. Even when it was to combat 4:2:0, 8bit and brutally heavy image compression. I predict this external raw thing to have an even smaller splash than external 4:2:2 10bit did. Mostly thanks to the affordable cinema camera options we have and how convenient it is. Also due to how little many users found value of even 4:2:2 10bit when it came to visual quality.
Yes raw provides other benefits but not everyone wants to shoot like that to fix it in post.
With that said if one already owns a DSLR and they do shoot hybrid or not ready to invest to a new camera system then yes its exciting that the S1H can now have two different raw options.
Hah ... I was going to post this in the GH-6 thread after seeing those Panasonic announcements.
I can see the 8K video and a 42-45 MPX photography coexisting quite nicely (on a full frame camera for the time being). But then the stills resolution will take another jump and the video will lag behind as has been the norm in hybrid shooting.
The third side to this story is that 45 MPX photo and 8K video are more than sufficient for most uses.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Also NLE plays a valid factor right now. ProRes Raw does not work in Resolve so a user is kind of limited to FCPX and a few other tools to grade. I use FCPX and I love it but its grading tools are not as sophisticated as Resolve. A film maker that cares enough about grading and having raw will likely also really factor in the quality of the grading tools.
The opposite is also true for Braw users who also use FCPX to edit with.
Its very unfortunate that we have to choose a raw format based on our NLE of choice. It should not be that way. A NLE should support all industry standards. Thats its entire purpose for existing.
The opposite is also true for Braw users who also use FCPX to edit with.
Its very unfortunate that we have to choose a raw format based on our NLE of choice. It should not be that way. A NLE should support all industry standards. Thats its entire purpose for existing.
jonpais
Well-known member
For sure, only an idiot buys a hybrid camera to shoot video. And RAW with a mirrorless camera is ridiculous. I'm sure you're right, this RAW thing is just a fad and it will disappear sooner than you can blink. So my question is, why is it that a Sony camera with horrific ergonomics, noisy footage, poor color science, garbage latitude, clinically sharp lenses without character that breathe like crazy, without proper tools like waveform and false color, 24p, 180 degree shutter angle, the ability to load LUTS and no timecode - how is it that a camera as lousy as that just wipes the floor with Blackmagic Design cameras? Why does BMD footage all look muddy and out-of-focus? Utterly lacking in color, texture, detail, tonality, contrast and depth? Is it that BMD shooters don't understand how to use their gear properly, or is there some other reason, like defective sensors, overprocessing or a grunge aesthetic that renounces all universally accepted standards of image quality? I would honestly like to know, since I used to watch a lot of BMD videos, but the quality was so poor it made me physically ill.
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soarprod
Veteran
I think a lot of people don’t know how to grade or even normalize their footage. Lacking contrast and depth.
Apple, as usual, tries to force users into their closed loop hardware/software universe with Prores RAW. NLE's can't support it if Apple won't license it to them or support it on non-Apple hardware platforms.
BRAW is a decent compressed raw codec and Black Magic is a lot more egalitarian in their licensing practices.
Compared to my preferred NLE, Lightworks, FCPX is not all that different from iMovie, a toy for children.
BRAW is a decent compressed raw codec and Black Magic is a lot more egalitarian in their licensing practices.
Compared to my preferred NLE, Lightworks, FCPX is not all that different from iMovie, a toy for children.
jonpais
Well-known member
That is a baseless falsehood. ProRes is supported by thousands of products worldwide, by every NLE and it is the industry’s most used codec. It is available on Arri cameras and many others besides. It has wider adoption by far than BRAW. No one shoots BRAW except for BMD camera owners. BMD cameras are seldom found on high end productions because they have a history of unreliability. RED and ARRI are used when true quality and the utmost in reliability are required. BMD is okay for very low budget work, youtube and for high school projects. In a very short period of time, nearly every manufactuer has worked with Atomos to enable ProRes RAW, both cinema cameras and mirrorless. Over thirty different cameras record ProRes RAW with the Ninja V alone. The same cannot be said for the closed ecosystem of Blackmagic. ProRes RAW is compatible with no fewer than a half dozen NLEs and growing. ProRes RAW is true RAW, unlike BRAW which is debayered in camera and has noise reduction and sharpening added in camera. ProRes RAW is already the industry leader judging by the sheer number of cameras that use it. Atomos and Apple have done more to democratize RAW than any other company.
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Prores is still only supported on Windows or Linux platform NLE's for import, not export, with the recent exception of Adobe CS for Prores.
I use a third party utility for Prores transcodes when I need to export it. Same is true of Prores RAW, import and playback only, no export capability on non-Mac hardware. AVID only supports link and transcode for Prores RAW on Mac hardware. DaVinci only supports import and transcode IF FCPX is also installed, so still only Mac hardware. Adobe CS natively supports import and transcode, but not export on Windows. Lightworks supports Prores import and export on Mac hardware, import only otherwise. Hasn't implemented support for Prores RAW yet, but I'm sure it is in the pipeline.
Export of any raw format from an NLE is not really relevant to normal workflows. Prores export obviously is when client delivery requires it.
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NorBro
Major Contributor
One of the most inaccurate statements made in the history of this forum.
I'm sure Lightworks is amazing, but to compare FCP to iMovie in any way but their front end development and a few simple tasks is ignorant, and you simply don't know what you're talking about.
It is easier to express your disdain for Apple than making remarks like that when it's clear you haven't spent any honest time with the application.
___
And this...this is a great trolling post to defend Sony and show your love for the company (I like that passion), but I hope it's just trolling as you also can't be that foolish either.
Blackmagic makes Sony IQ look like Fisher-Price.
Actually I did read through the FCPX manual and watched both beginner and advanced tutorials to get an understanding of editing workflow. We have both PC's and Macs in house, my wife loves her new iMac. We repurposed her old one, which is no longer upgradable to current OS standards and not secure online, into a dedicated sound workstation running Harrison Mixbus using my MOTU Ultralite firewire mixer. We have an old copy of FCP 7 on that one.
As a desktop NLE for individuals editing their own projects from start to finish FCPX seems to be OK, but not very friendly for cross platform, multi application, coordinated remote projects with others. Nor as just another typical fixed layout format NLE does it allow me to layout flexible desktop UI's best suited to different stages of a film style editorial process.
Bob Loblaw
Active member
You seem to be confusing ProRes with ProRes RAW. BM’s Resolve does support ProRes and their cameras do record ProRes internally (except for the 12K.) BRAW is a bit of a cheat for compressed RAW due entirely to Red’s monopoly (RED has crippled the entire industry,) but outside of REDCODE RAW, BRAW is by far the best internal codec I’ve ever used on a camera. It gives RAW functionality to beautifully compressed footage. You would have to turn to ProRes 4444 to even come close. I love ProRes RAW, but being an ‘external only’ ‘Atomos only’ codec kills it for me.
jonpais
Well-known member
BRAW is a bit of a cheat. You must not have read my comment, though, because I was addressing the complete falsehood perpetuated online by a concerted misinformation campaign alleging that Apple is a closed ecosystem or that 'gasp!', their intellectual property is licensed, when in fact their codecs are shared with too many thousands of products, software and companies to count - and ProRes RAW is on the fast track to becoming an industry standard as well, being implemented by most of the major manufacturers, whereas BRAW, a niche product, has been adopted by an insignificant few. Far from crippling the entire industry, Jim Jannard revolutionized filmmaking and there is no disputing that RED is the most significant camera of the past decade. Along with ARRI, RED is consistently behind the most productions that annually receive the most prestigious awards. And I was blown away when living in Korea to see the very first locally produced films and television shows shot on RED, with an image quality no one had ever witnessed before either at the theater or on television - especially since they were in the hands of gifted filmmakers and DPs. Blackmagic, not so much - mostly obscure, no-budget affairs that don’t get talked about. High end productions do not shoot with Blackmagic cameras except very infrequently as John Brawley did on the set of The Great, where the G2 played second fiddle to Arri. That Blackmagic cameras are so ridiculously cheap has contributed to ruining their image, as there is a constant stream of unwatchable videos online shot by unschooled amateurs with their cameras. Apple and Atomos have done more to democratize RAW than any company on the planet. Those who would deny that are living in crazytown. No one is interested in whether you like recording externally or not, least of all Sony, Fuji, Panasonic, Canon, Olympus, Z Cam, Nikon, or Fuj, the half dozen or more NLEs that support PRR, or the countless number of filmmakers worldwide who use their products to put money on the table each and every day. I’ve only ever seen students shooting Blackmagic cameras and from the tenor of the comments here and elsewhere on the Web, it seems as though they are very active in the comments sections of YouTube videos and in forums furiously defending their brand and viciously attacking others - even when it was not even remotely related to the video or completely off-topic - as it is here. There's something weirdly fascistic about such fierce brand loyalty. DPs on real productions - that is, not in the fairytale land of the forums - work with all kinds of cameras. And I've never heard a single DP deride another because they use a different brand from theirs. The reason being, it's a sign of emotional and intellectual immaturity and could even cost them their work. The topic was comparing BRAW to PRR with the S1H, not whether BRAW is the best format on the planet or whether your cherished brand is better than all the rest. And as it turns out, in many respects, ProRes RAW performed better. The almost robotic refrain repeated over and over by forum members, "I like BRAW because it's recorded internally" is altogether irrelevant to the topic. The fact is, being able to shoot several different flavors of RAW, H.265, V-Log and ProRes all with one camera is a distinct advantage.
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To get a better sense of the degree of adoption (or lack thereof) by non-apple products for both ProRes RAW vs. ProRes, take a look at Apple's comparison list:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT200321#proresraw
Judging from the comparative sizes of those lists I'd venture that ProRes RAW may have a long way to go. Of course the big one that's missing from the ProRes RAW list is Davinci Resolve -- which means that for a professional-level color correction job you're probably choosing Assimilate Scratch. (By the way, Scratch is an excellent system - we used it for the last feature I shot - but that could be a decision to make before embarking on recording in ProRes RAW.) I'm also not seeing a lot of direct codec support from the major VFx programs - which could be a red flag as well...
jonpais
Well-known member
Give it a chance, man! ProRes was first released fourteen years ago! No red flags. smh
I'll be both willing and happy to give it a chance -- once it properly integrates into a professional postproduction workflow that my clients will accept - Even if that only means adding Resolve, Fusion, Avid, AfterEffects and Premiere to the list and having cross-platform support. Until then, the best system for me is one I can work with that will also be accepted by my clients.