S1H Braw vs ProRes RAW

jonpais said:
Seems like it’s on BMD to add PRR compatibilty to Resolve, not Apple. Meanwhile, I work exclusively in DaVinci Resolve Studio with ProRes RAW HQ converted to ProRes 4444.
Click to expand...

For me, assigning blame to either company doesn't solve any problems. Over the years I've bought too many pieces of gear or too many workflows with the expectation that promised features, firmware or fixes would arrive. Sometimes I've been lucky, and other times have ended up with expensive doorstops. Now I wait until I see that it actually works for me. I've also shot jobs where the client mandated a specific recording format or camera - only to be contacted by the postproduction supervisors later, after they'd discovered that their edit system wouldn't accept the format they requested. While that may be 'on them' it quickly became my problem to fix (for no additional fees) if I ever expected to work with them again. That's how I learned how important it is to successfully test the workflow in advance, and failing that have everything recorded simultaneously (on a separate recorder) in a format that I know all the major editing systems could accommodate.

I'm glad the ProResRAW workflow works for you. I don't know how much footage you tend to shoot (many of my recent shoots have been multicam 3-4 cameras, each shooting 2-3 hours of footage a day) - but just think about how much easier and quicker your workflow would be if resolve accepted it natively and you didn't need to convert the footage before editing.
 
jonpais said:
BRAW is a bit of a cheat. You must not have read my comment, though, because I was addressing the complete falsehood perpetuated online by a concerted misinformation campaign alleging that Apple is a closed ecosystem or that 'gasp!', their intellectual property is licensed, when in fact their codecs are shared with too many thousands of products, software and companies to count - and ProRes RAW is on the fast track to becoming an industry standard as well, being implemented by most of the major manufacturers, whereas BRAW, a niche product, has been adopted by an insignificant few. Far from crippling the entire industry, Jim Jannard revolutionized filmmaking and there is no disputing that RED is the most significant camera of the past decade. Along with ARRI, RED is consistently behind the most productions that annually receive the most prestigious awards. And I was blown away when living in Korea to see the very first locally produced films and television shows shot on RED, with an image quality no one had ever witnessed before either at the theater or on television - especially since they were in the hands of gifted filmmakers and DPs. Blackmagic, not so much - mostly obscure, no-budget affairs that don’t get talked about. High end productions do not shoot with Blackmagic cameras except very infrequently as John Brawley did on the set of The Great, where the G2 played second fiddle to Arri. That Blackmagic cameras are so ridiculously cheap has contributed to ruining their image, as there is a constant stream of unwatchable videos online shot by unschooled amateurs with their cameras. Apple and Atomos have done more to democratize RAW than any company on the planet. Those who would deny that are living in crazytown. No one is interested in whether you like recording externally or not, least of all Sony, Fuji, Panasonic, Canon, Olympus, Z Cam, Nikon, or Fuj, the half dozen or more NLEs that support PRR, or the countless number of filmmakers worldwide who use their products to put money on the table each and every day. I’ve only ever seen students shooting Blackmagic cameras and from the tenor of the comments here and elsewhere on the Web, it seems as though they are very active in the comments sections of YouTube videos and in forums furiously defending their brand and viciously attacking others - even when it was not even remotely related to the video or completely off-topic - as it is here. There's something weirdly fascistic about such fierce brand loyalty. DPs on real productions - that is, not in the fairytale land of the forums - work with all kinds of cameras. And I've never heard a single DP deride another because they use a different brand from theirs. The reason being, it's a sign of emotional and intellectual immaturity and could even cost them their work. The topic was comparing BRAW to PRR with the S1H, not whether BRAW is the best format on the planet or whether your cherished brand is better than all the rest. And as it turns out, in many respects, ProRes RAW performed better. The almost robotic refrain repeated over and over by forum members, "I like BRAW because it's recorded internally" is altogether irrelevant to the topic. The fact is, being able to shoot several different flavors of RAW, H.265, V-Log and ProRes all with one camera is a distinct advantage.
Click to expand...

That was one of the most sweaty fanboy posts I've ever read. Good for you.
 
OnSet said:
For me, assigning blame to either company doesn't solve any problems. Over the years I've bought too many pieces of gear or too many workflows with the expectation that promised features, firmware or fixes would arrive. Sometimes I've been lucky, and other times have ended up with expensive doorstops. Now I wait until I see that it actually works for me. I've also shot jobs where the client mandated a specific recording format or camera - only to be contacted by the postproduction supervisors later, after they'd discovered that their edit system wouldn't accept the format they requested. While that may be 'on them' it quickly became my problem to fix (for no additional fees) if I ever expected to work with them again. That's how I learned how important it is to successfully test the workflow in advance, and failing that have everything recorded simultaneously (on a separate recorder) in a format that I know all the major editing systems could accommodate.

I'm glad the ProResRAW workflow works for you. I don't know how much footage you tend to shoot (many of my recent shoots have been multicam 3-4 cameras, each shooting 2-3 hours of footage a day) - but just think about how much easier and quicker your workflow would be if resolve accepted it natively and you didn't need to convert the footage before editing.
Click to expand...
Then petition Blackmagic.
 
I know every single one of us are used to having great features and cameras and software by now, but it has to be kindly reminded this stuff comes from ruthless, for-profit giants.

These format technicalities exist because these people are trying to make the most money they can.

This is why RED ferociously protects their IP and has even the almighty Apple paying them royalty fees for ProRes RAW, which further complicates getting the format into other companies' cameras, which is why Atomos - who has some sort of undisclosed relationship with RED - is the only one offering this external hardware on such a diverse level and probably not getting hit as hard. (But then again, they tripled the prices on their new recorders so maybe it's time for them to make some more money.)

All speculation, I don't know. And I don't blame RED because they are smart, but I'd have to agree with Bob that they really messed everything up in this industry.

All cameras should be internally capturing the highest-quality RAW motion pictures they possibly can, and they currently cannot without having to jump through technical loopholes.

___

Here's the bottom line...

We don't see what happens in these boardrooms and we are very comfortable because things have mostly worked out thus far, but things could be a lot more difficult for us if there wasn't some sort of mutual respect between these people.

These companies don't owe us anything and if FCP was owned by someone else, Adobe would have purchased it already and we'd most likely never see ProRes RAW again.

It also has to be reminded that Resolve came before most of the cameras. If Blackmagic didn't acquire da Vinci Systems and the company's CEO Grant Petty's mission wasn't about about putting inexpensive tools in everyone hands (those are his words), the landscape could have been very different.

Apple...Apple is literally using nickels and dimes they find under the couches around their various HQs for FCP and ProRes RAW. Now for anyone else it would be very wise to write the code for other industry leaders like Resolve and Premiere so you share your product with everyone, but they do things how they do things for a reason. We don't know what they are thinking.

As far as we know, they might be working on it, or they are okay with the limited use it has in other software, but the next logical, corporate move would be to acquire RED and put this into their iPhones and iPads and even their own cinema camera which would be a day I hope I see.
 
NorBro said:
I know every single one of us are used to having great features and cameras and software by now, but it has to be kindly reminded this stuff comes from ruthless, for-profit giants.

These format technicalities exist because these people are trying to make the most money they can.

This is why RED ferociously protects their IP and has even the almighty Apple paying them royalty fees for ProRes RAW, which further complicates getting the format into other companies' cameras, which is why Atomos - who has some sort of undisclosed relationship with RED - is the only one offering this external hardware on such a diverse level and probably not getting hit as hard. (But then again, they tripled the prices on their new recorders so maybe it's time for them to make some more money.)

All speculation, I don't know. And I don't blame RED because they are smart, but I'd have to agree with Bob that they really messed everything up in this industry.

All cameras should be internally capturing the highest-quality RAW motion pictures they possibly can, and they currently cannot without having to jump through technical loopholes.

___

Here's the bottom line...

We don't see what happens in these boardrooms and we are very comfortable because things have mostly worked out thus far, but things could be a lot more difficult for us if there wasn't some sort of mutual respect between these people.

These companies don't owe us anything and if FCP was owned by someone else, Adobe would have purchased it already and we'd most likely never see ProRes RAW again.

It also has to be reminded that Resolve came before most of the cameras. If Blackmagic didn't acquire da Vinci Systems and the company's CEO Grant Petty's mission wasn't about about putting inexpensive tools in everyone hands (those are his words), the landscape could have been very different.

Apple...Apple is literally using nickels and dimes they find under the couches around their various HQs for FCP and ProRes RAW. Now for anyone else it would be very wise to write the code for other industry leaders like Resolve and Premiere so you share your product with everyone, but they do things how they do things for a reason. We don't know what they are thinking.

As far as we know, they might be working on it, or they are okay with the limited use it has in other software, but the next logical, corporate move would be to acquire RED and put this into their iPhones and iPads and even their own cinema camera which would be a day I hope I see.
Click to expand...

Bob Loblaw said:
That was one of the most sweaty fanboy posts I've ever read. Good for you.
Click to expand...
Let Blackmagic be the first to give up all their intellectual property rights, then we can talk about RED, since Grant Petty is running a charity. LOL
RED has an obligation to protect their intellectual property rights, just as every other company on the face of the planet does.
When everyone here is proclaiming BRAW second only to REDCODE RAW, it seems pointless to demand RED release the grip on their patent.
Far from complicating matters, RED's patent has greatly simplified things.
Never in the all too brief history of digital cinema has RAW acquisition been more accessible than through the partnership of Atomos & Apple.
Just a few years ago, no mirrorless cameras recorded RAW. Now, well over thirty mirrorless cameras record RAW.
A few can even record BRAW and ProRes RAW, log, HLG and H.265.
Recording RAW internally with SDXC cards can be notoriously expensive.
A single 256GB SDXC card can run $400, making the Ninja V/SSD (1TB for $200) solution look positively cheap!
HDR video absolutely requires a production monitor, plain and simple. All high end productions require external monitors. And most mirrorless cameras don't
have scopes, either.
The relationship between Atomos and RED is not all that mysterious - they have a royalty sharing agreement, just as countless other tech companies do.
It is not some sinister cabal. SMH
$1,500 for the Ninja V+ is a bargain. After all, it is the only 5" 8K RAW recorder in the world, around the same price as my iPhone 12 Pro Max. Nothing extraordinary.
It is for professional productions and those that require one will be able to rent from outfits like lensrentals and bill the client along with everything else,
as is routinely done in the industry.
Blackmagic's Video Assist 7" 12G runs a whopping grand and does neither 8K or 120p.
"ruthless, for-profit giants!" LOL
Not sure what all this has got to do with BRAW's abysmal performance with the S1H.
Actually, it's pretty transparent what's going on here.
 
Last edited:
You're one of those dudes who just doesn't get it.

You think you have it all figured out from filming a few videos of yourself glancing at the camera.

You omit details in your arguments about other companies and cameras and workflows, and you are a waste of time.
 
NorBro said:
You're one of those dudes who just doesn't get it.

You think you have it all figured out from filming a few videos of yourself glancing at the camera.

You omit details in your arguments about other companies and cameras and workflows, and you are a waste of time.
Click to expand...
You’re right: I forgot to mention that BRAW looks atrocious on the Sigma fp as well.

Interesting that you're the only one who thinks Sony looks like Fisher Price, since they are consistently behind some of the best Netflix Originals.
https://ymcinema.com/2021/01/20/the-cameras-behind-best-netflix-original-movies-of-2020/

Not a single Blackmagic on the list! LOL
Also of note: Blackmagic has 1/3 as many approved cameras as Panasonic, Canon and Sony.

Not a single BMD behind Oscar nominated films, either.
I guess the judges on the panels didn't know that NorBro didn't approve of Sony colors.

So let's stop pretending anyone is shooting Hollywood blockbusters with BMD cameras and get down to earth.
Most video shooters, if they're fortunate enough to be working at all, are shooting stuff like weddings, real estate, nature, documentary, fitness videos, product photography, corprorate, interviews, music videos, fashion and makeup, YouTube, news gathering and the like. And for many of those situations, a MILC might be the preferred tool.

Or a RED Komodo, Canon C70, FX3, FX9, C300 Mark III, a7s III or dozens of other cameras.

"Resolve for me is a good color correction/grading application that can also work for my finishing needs (although I still prefer to edit in something else and roundtrip to/from Resolve). It’s also a great option for the casual editor who wants a free tool. Yet in spite of all its benefits, I believe Resolve will still be a distant fourth in the NLE world, at least for the next year". Oliver Peters

Things haven't changed much since that was written in 2019 - Resolve, a superb color grading NLE, not so terrific for editing. On the other hand, Resolve is the only NLE for grading HDR if one has to choose from among Avid Media Composer, Adobe Premiere Pro, Apple Final Cut Pro, and Blackmagic Design DaVinci Resolve.
 
Last edited:
ProRes RAW. Fast on its way to becoming the industry standard. More cameras are being added monthly.
Next year we’ll see a half dozen 8K RAW cameras added to the list. (Z Cam, Sony and Canon already have 8K cameras out)
Canon EOS C300 II
Canon EOS C500
Panasonic LUMIX S5​
Panasonic LUMIX S1H​
Panasonic LUMIX BGH1
Panasonic VARICAM LT
Panasonic EVA-1
Sony A7S III​
Sony Alpha 1
Sony FX3
Sony FX6
Sony FX9
Sony FS5
Sony FS7
Sony FS700
Nikon Z6​
Nikon Z7 ​
Nikon Z6 II​
Nikon Z7 II​
Z CAM E2​
Z CAM E2C​
Z CAM E2-S6​
Z CAM E2-M4​
Z CAM E2-F6​
Z CAM E2-F8​
Olympus​ OM-D E-M1 MARK III​
Olympus OM-D E-M1X​
FUJIFILM GFX100
Fujifilm GFX100S​
SIGMA fp
Sigma fp L
 
Last edited:
There was a time when I watched all of your MFT videos on YouTube and even recommended a few on here because you always tested really nice Panasonic lenses if I recall correctly. I admired your research.

Somewhere along the line, maybe about two years ago, you discovered Sony and full-frame and became obsessed with this universe of technical perfection.

Bud...your Sony footage looks nothing like the shows on Netflix and in all honesty it's not even that great, I'm sorry to say.
 
NorBro said:
There was a time when I watched all of your MFT videos on YouTube and even recommended a few on here because you always tested really nice Panasonic lenses if I recall correctly. I admired your research.

Somewhere along the line, maybe about two years ago, you discovered Sony and full-frame and became obsessed with this universe of technical perfection.

Bud...your Sony footage looks nothing like the shows on Netflix and in all honesty it's not even that great, I'm sorry to say.
Click to expand...
Unable to respond to a single point I've made. So sad!
BTW, I endured a lot of sh* in the Lumix days too. Toxic, fascistic, fierce brand loyalty in all the forums.
Probably no more so than among BMD owners.
 
Last edited:
Just for the record...because you keep editing your posts and adding stuff, I love Sony.

I've owned more Sony cameras than you can name in your head.

I only troll you because you're so dramatic with your love and hate for stuff...that is why you "endure" on forums because you don't understand how to interact.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top