S-Log2 / LUT / Adobe Premiere

jcs said:
For folks not interested in 4K (right now), is the $400 firmware upgrade worth it for any other reason besides SLog2?
Click to expand...

Yes, a number of reasons, one of them being: outputting 2K 240fps with unlimited duration. Of course the cam does not record that internally: you will need either Odyssey 7Q, or Sony's own recorder duo.
 
PrimeHD said:
Yes, a number of reasons, one of them being: outputting 2K 240fps with unlimited duration. Of course the cam does not record that internally: you will need either Odyssey 7Q, or Sony's own recorder duo.
Click to expand...

That would be cool- is the 2K 240fps the same resolution as recorded internally? Another thread reported 2k RAW was low res/aliased. With a bit of work 10x slowdown is possible in post (never as good as real 240fps, but can work). I used this for part of an ad by Microsoft and Myspace a few years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgkGsWRQYT4 (shot on a Canon HF11).

Without using an external recorder, is there any reason to do the FS700 firmware upgrade (beyond SLog2, which doesn't appear all that useful for 8-bit vs. what's already available on the camera with custom profiles)? Did they fix the edge bugs with certain (vertical/horizontal) highlights? $400 could go toward buying another GoPro Hero 3 Black...
 
SKYLIKE said:
LUTs are not made to use them in Color Correction. When Shooting Log u need to cc with Log. Otherwise u could shoot in rec709 in the first place. Lut's are only made for monitoring purposes.

I have the feeling most of the people using Slog2 don't know anything about it neither handling it.
Click to expand...

Hummm..... i do alot of grading, 6 US primetime TV movies so far this year, 5 more contracted to the end of the year, a indie feature with a real distb and release + a small boatload of commercials... this prolly qualifies me to question the statment above ;-)

in my timeline tonight i have r3d's debayered RG3/RLF so they are very close to Slog footage... i have some shots graded straight from LOG, some graded on top of three diffrent LUT's in linear (Alexa_v3_640 / Kodak2393_fullrange / Sony's own Slog) and some graded in LOG underneath the LUT's.

It's all about creative choice, my creative choice, the DP's creative choice, how the shots come together.. i don't use Resolve, but it should have a LOG mode, as do a few other pieces of kit, but it's mainly highend kit that supports gradeing controls that map to LOG

My choice of kit does thankfully, on a per instance basis so i can switch between LIN mapping and LOG on my surface as needed.

I also have several hundred LUT's on my server so i can move "looks" i've made between systems, these are creative starting points to grade either on top of, or underneath, again a valid use of LUTs that is far beyond a monitoring LUT

Oh yea, the show i'm on tonight is being graded in P3 on a Christe projector, so not even 709...
 
Hi Gene,
Any chance you could share an AVCHD file you shot on SLOG2 that you feel doesn't take grading and saturation well? Perhaps through dropbox? I didn't really do a colour stress test and I've struggled grading in After Effects before so would be interested in seeing if it would fall apart in the way I'd grade it.
Thanks,
Toby
 
jcs said:
That would be cool- is the 2K 240fps the same resolution as recorded internally? Another thread reported 2k RAW was low res/aliased. With a bit of work 10x slowdown is possible in post (never as good as real 240fps, but can work). I used this for part of an ad by Microsoft and Myspace a few years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgkGsWRQYT4 (shot on a Canon HF11).
Click to expand...

Nice slo-mo in post! Do you have a link to the complete ad?

2K RAW: it cannot be recorded internally, you need external recorder to capture. Resolution pixel-wise will be the same, however bit depth is increased from 8 bit to 12 bit after the firmware upgrade. Also RAW is not compressed in the sense taht the internal AVCHD recording is, so RAW is always better.

See the list of firmware 3.0 features (4K upgrade) here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...RAW-upgrade-color-bit-depth-question-answered
 
Interesting post on the Sony software site:

[h=2]RAW Plug-in for Avid (PLAV-RW1)[/h]This AMA plug-in provides support for Sony RAW MXF files (F65, PMW-F55/F5 and NEX-FS700) in Avid MediaComposer and Symphony products, allowing viewing and editing capability.
[h=3]What's New[/h]
  • NEX-FS700 RAW support
  • Color space & Gamma Selection (Rec.709 & Rec.709 or S-Gamut & S-Log2)
  • Automatic link for AXSMemory

-.gif
-.gif

[TD="bgcolor: #b8bcbf"]
-.gif
[/TD]
RAW Plug-in for Avid (PLAV-RW1)


-.gif

[TD="bgcolor: #b8bcbf"]
-.gif
[/TD]
Note
Supported Avid Products: Media Composer 6.5, Symphony 6.5. The current plug-in does not officially support Avid Media Composer 7. An update to add support for Avid Media Composer 7 is expected to release near the end of July.
 
To stir the mix a bit more...
If a colorist has an issue with using a LUT to speed his way to the proper final grade, the same result can be achieved by using the Gamma curve, in my case the one in Media Composer. By adding a head and tail knee, the Slog2 file acquired on an external recorder can be very finely graded.
 
PrimeHD said:
Nice slo-mo in post! Do you have a link to the complete ad?

2K RAW: it cannot be recorded internally, you need external recorder to capture. Resolution pixel-wise will be the same, however bit depth is increased from 8 bit to 12 bit after the firmware upgrade. Also RAW is not compressed in the sense taht the internal AVCHD recording is, so RAW is always better.

See the list of firmware 3.0 features (4K upgrade) here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...RAW-upgrade-color-bit-depth-question-answered
Click to expand...

Thanks Alex! The ad was on MySpace until NewsCorp sold it to Specific Media (whole new site now).

I use 14-bit RAW on the 5D3- no need for 12-bit RAW on FS700 at this time. Slomo with well-chosen custom picture profiles works fine with AVCHD on the FS700. Can use my Nanoflash if any macroblocking issues (low light, etc); but not for run and gun.

The firmware upgrade provides two new profiles, start trigger over SDI and HDMI, and SELP18200 support. Everything else appears to be for RAW. Already have SELP18200 support from the Asian FS700 2.0 firmware. Again, if XAVC was included, would be worth it. As is, not worth it.
Understand Sony protecting the F5; that's business.
 
Gene
i downloaded your two MTS files, used Clipwrap to re-wrap them to h.264, then brought them into my Avid|DS with no input LUT applied, so they presented flat, i them applied a Alexa v3_640 3D LUT


I see significant compression artifacts in both clips, maybe it's time for an external recorder?
 
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Hey Dermont,

Did you see the comparison between the Cinegamma 4 and the S-Log. Exact same shot, same time. The Cinegamma 4 had way less blocking in it while the S-Log had significant blocking when compared.

Here's the two tests posted on-line: Cine 4 vs Slog.

Test 1
http://www.builtbyugene.com/mov_tests/slog/SlogTests_0202a.mov

Test2
http://www.builtbyugene.com/mov_tests/slog/SlogTests_0202b.mov

But yeah, you're probably right about the recorder :(
 
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Hi Gene,

I've been playing, some, with Slog2. Now, I'm running into the same issues you did, only I'm recording on an external recorder, 8-bit 422. Very ugly macro-blocking on clouds/skies. Slog2 seems to be very sensitive to the grading applied...as you noted...:(
 
Perhaps Slog2 is not so good altogether on FS700. Hoping RAW is the answer.

Does anyone know whether CD's Odyssey 7Q will be able to capture RAW in 12 bit, as Sony says the cam outputs after the firmware upgrade?
 
When I last spoke(on this forum) with Dan (from C-D), they were trying to figure out how to access 4k from the camera and down convert it to one of their compressed codecs. They can't provide 4k, directly, per Sony, but, they may be able to provide a downconverted file. For example, if they can provide DNx220x, downconverted from 4k, rather than taken from the camera's 8-bit stream, then they can supply a 12-bit stream and record it to a 10-bit wrapper. That's really where I'm placing my hopes...
 
But what about 2k? My understanding is that Odyssey 7Q is mostly designed to capture 2K RAW, including 240fps framerate, and record it in DNG format. Will that capture preserve Sony's 12 bit signal depth?
 
The way I see things, 4k is currently not practical....storage sizes, pipeline capacity, etc.
I'd be very happy with a 10 bit compressed codec, like DNxHD or ProRes. 2k isn't that big of a step over HD.
 
ProRes: yes I'd love it, if it still could be reliably written to SD card internally.

On the other hand, Sony's current internal AVCHD codec is superb, but I do need higher color fidelity than 4:2:0, and higher bit depth than 8.

I think, rather than compressed, 12 bit RAW at 2K (or HD) is fantastic for post, and I hope that's what Odyssey 7Q will deliver...
 
For 8-bit recording, looks like the old advice still holds true: use a picture profile tuned for the conditions and be very careful to white balance and expose correctly.

In this case, internal AVCHD does a fine job, especially for slomo. An external recorder can help with any compression artifacts in extreme conditions.

The 5D3 14-bit RAW with cheap Komputerbay cards (return until you get ones that work. I got 2 64's and both worked. Sounds like they have 128's that work now) makes 1080p FS700 12-bit RAW a very expensive, clunky alternative. With AE and ACR, the Canon colors are amazing with almost no tweaking needed. ACR's NR also rocks.

For absolute top quality, CD's solution will hopefully match or exceed the 5D3 RAW, however the cost is quite high. Sony's solution is so poorly designed I don't consider it a viable option.
 
jcs...

How reliable is RAW out of the 5D3? Looking at the Magic Lantern site, RAW really hasn't been officially integrated into the ML hack. People are sorta putting one hack into another. And, somehow, I just am not comfortable with the DSLR form factor....seems very odd and THAT seems clunky to me.
 
Cuervo- reliability is number one for any tool. I have had no issues with recent ML builds and working 64GB Komputerbay cards. Perhaps PM dvxuser squig. IIRC he's shot a feature length piece in RAW. $3600 for a 5D3 + a few hundred for CF cards can't be touched by anything right now for RAW level image quality. I like the DSLR form factor. With a $25 shoulder brace I can shoot light stealth and attract little attention.

For fast turn around and pro audio, the FS700 is still a great tool (not comparing slomo which the 5D3 can't really do).
 
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