S-Cinetone Update for a7s III
- Thread starter jonpais
- Start date
My A7sIII can already do 60p in XAVC S I 4K... so not sure what that's about.
I also don't get many requests for 60p... but believe this what all the young folks use to shoot those gimbal "slo-mo" shots - which you can find all over YT.
As for S-Cinetone on the A7sIII.... as I posted in another thread, Paul Ream figured this out about two months ago... perhaps just a coincidence that Sony may now be updating via FW ... and Chris Young - who posts here - also may have improved upon a few of Paul's settings...
https://youtu.be/H5Rat4xxkUg
I also don't get many requests for 60p... but believe this what all the young folks use to shoot those gimbal "slo-mo" shots - which you can find all over YT.
As for S-Cinetone on the A7sIII.... as I posted in another thread, Paul Ream figured this out about two months ago... perhaps just a coincidence that Sony may now be updating via FW ... and Chris Young - who posts here - also may have improved upon a few of Paul's settings...
https://youtu.be/H5Rat4xxkUg
ahalpert
Major Contributor
wait where is the problem with 60p? I'm confused
ahalpert
Major Contributor
I think this S-Cinetone update is very positive in terms of matching a7siii with an FX camera on non-graded output. the picture profiles of the a7 series otherwise don't line up with the cinema cameras besides s-log, right?
And the Paul Ream s-cinetone settings went awry with exposure errors, didn't he say?
I'm happy with the color settings I'm using now, but I'm excited to see how this turns out. I mean, more capabilities is always a good thing, right?
And the Paul Ream s-cinetone settings went awry with exposure errors, didn't he say?
I'm happy with the color settings I'm using now, but I'm excited to see how this turns out. I mean, more capabilities is always a good thing, right?
Absolutely. Just rather ironic - since Paul was the person who "hacked" the F5 to shoot 4k - when Sony initially said it couldn't do it. Now he makes a pretty darn good profile for S-Cinetone... and 2 months later there's a rumor Sony is updating FW to add it.
drboffa
Well-known member
60p is perfect for slowing down in a 24 or 30p timeline. And with something like Resolve's Speed Warp it can give you super slow motion that's pretty convincing, provided you shoot at a fast enough shutter speed. I rarely (if ever) edit or deliver in 60p, but I'm shooting in it more often.
Bassman2003
Veteran
The message at the top of the comments is about 4k60p on the A7RIV. So different camera they were wishcomplaining about.
Not certain of this, but it appears that the firmware update won't drop to February 23rd when the other Sony announcements are scheduled.
jonpais
Well-known member
Do you mean to say the FW update won’t be available until after the Feb. 23rd announcement?
Sony is announcing a new addition to its cinema line on February 23rd. The reports are that the FW update will be available on the same date.
cyvideo
Veteran
I found Paul's color match to the FX9 Cinetone to be mighty close, very close indeed. Credits to him as he took a lot of time to reach these settings. The biggest problem for me is when using Paul's settings on Rec 709 displays. The bulk of TV sets are Rec 709 (excluding HDR) was that the Black levels were clipping quite heavily. Compressed to the point of detail loss. A lot of good detail was also lost in the lower tones. What I ended up doing was adjusting the Black levels on a set of Tektronix scopes, WFM and Vector. On both the A7Siii and and A7iii until the Black levels were just sitting on Blanking with the Cine 4 Gamma Black level set to -4. Paul's A7Siii Cinetone match is based on Sony's Cine 4 Gamma. To adjust the lower tone levels I went to Black Gamma and set that to Range Wide, Level +7. On the WFM this gave the nicest looking tonal spread and more importantly on a reference 709 flat panel and on a Sony Grade 2 CRT reference monitor the best overall looking image. How an image "looks" is a bit of a subjective thing. For me, Pauls's color science "Cinetone" tweaks and my Black and Gamma tweaks gave me an image that I am happy to deliver straight out of the camera.
Then of course how do you know what sort of monitor/TV and what settings on those units are being used to display your images, work of art whatever? If you are using a video player on a computer how do you know if it is interpreting your footage correctly? Do your files have the necessary metadata embedded in them to enable the video player to interpret them correctly? Does the player you or your client is using even have that capability? There are very few video players that can do this interpretation correctly automatically. VLC player for example is NOT one of them as popular as it is. The old Windows spin-off MPHC Classic player has user-selectable output render settings so if you are checking your 709 level production on a 709 display you can set the player to the restricted output video range of 16-235. If your images look correct and don't have crushed blacks and clipped whites you are on the money. There again if you are using a screen that is set to 'Full Range' of 0-255 and you want to check your production for that level of delivery switch MPHC's output renderer to 0-255 and your image should look correct. All easily confirmed if you just include a few seconds of SMPTE Color Bars at the head of a test clip of your material before you render your final production out.
My aim with any camera settings for "out of camera" settings is to make sure that it does display correctly for 709 displays, as that is the majority of them. 709 displays expect "Video" levels. Most software players expect Video levels. Players that do automatically interpret levels when seeing 16-235 levels will interpret correctly even if it is running on a 0-255 level display. If though the blacks are already crushed within the 0-255 range setting on a camera there is no way of recovering them with any player or TV, or PC for that matter. That is what I found was happening with Paul's original Black and Black Gamma levels. I have no disagreement with his color settings, love 'em. Try the following experiment if you wish. Below are two frame grabs of a fairly wide dynamic range shot from "The Accountant". These grabs came from the BD dsk. On the timeline the file 709. The P3 version is full level and designed for full-range P3 level theatre projectors. One image is is grabbed at 0-255 range and the other at 16-235 range. Try and look at both of them on two different displays. One a known 16-235 709 display and the other on a known 0-255 display. I think you will soon know which image looks best on which display.
Also below are two frame grabs from a colleague's A7Siii. One grab is using Paul's settings as he posted on his YT video that Mark linked to. The other is using Paul's settings but with the Black level and Black Gamma level tweaks that I settled on to deliver what I wanted. Not saying either Paul's to my changes to his settings are what you need or want. All I can suggest is that they are a pretty good starting point to work from. Paul has done all the really hard work. Again check out those two images on a known 709 display at 16-235 and a full range display at 0-255. Again I think you will know which one looks best and displays less crushed blacks when viewed on a TV... the TV expecting a 709 level unless the input level has been switched from Auto to Full Range.
Chris Young
My changes to Paul's settings to suit my 709 requirements. As I say not set in stone. They are adjustment to Paul's great "Cinetone" settings:
Black Level: - 4
Gamma: Cine4
Black Gamma: Range Wide, Level + 7
Knee: Mode Manual, 95%, Slope 0
Colour Mode: Pro
Saturation -1
Color Phase: -1
Colour Depth:
R: +1
G; +2
B: 0
C: +1
M: +1
Y: +1
Detail: Level - 0 (Personal choice. Suit yourself depending on the subject matter and just what your lens is delivering to the image)
16-235
0-255
Paul's Cinetone
CYV Cinetone changes
MPHC 16-235
MPHC 0-255
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jonpais
Well-known member
Sounds good! Thanks for the clarification.
jonpais
Well-known member
It's live! Big Sur not supported!
https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/e-mount-body-ilce-7-series/ilce-7sm3/software/00257159
https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/e-mount-body-ilce-7-series/ilce-7sm3/software/00257159
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Chris - my apologies if I misspoke too soon or without checking with you first. I probably should have alerted you to my post. Just appreciate the work you put in improving something which was already good.
Now we'll have to see what Sony's "actual" version of this profile looks like and if it is essentially the tweaks that you & Paul had already done. Cheers!
I love 60p! Perfect for slow mo in 24p timelines, not ideal for every shoot but certain ones where I know I'll need to fill some gaps in the edit comes in very handy. If the client in post is like " hey is it possible to slow that clip down" I can be like yup! Almost every high end camera has at-least 60p recording for a reason 
cyvideo
Veteran
No worries. Yes, it will be interesting to see how the S-Cintone goes on the 7Siii. Will be interesting to compare with Paul's settings. Mine were just tweaks to his time-consuming work. Takes ages to develop profiles. Especially if you have to match another camera as close as possible.
Chris Young