Rumor: Canon 4k super35 camera
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Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
That's their announcement.
Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
And that's your (good) point.I think you need to determine what the price point is to compete with the AF/FS 100. I'd say within $1k in either direction
Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
Funny I am reading the thread backwards and only got now there is a bet running up on the subject! LOL
How are you, mate? (I hadn't seen when I commented Barry's)
Epic all the way (that is the camera) 2 units of X model, very very likely (no idea yet about how many when/if Epic-S ;-)
The upcoming Canon's FF is very promising too.
But there are two cheap cameras (hacked GH2 for professional work and NEX-5N) right now which have much amazed myself.
Cheers to both of you,
E
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That would've made more sense if the hypothetical Canon camera had come out a year ago. Since then, Panasonic has released a three-chip 1/3-inch camera, which nonetheless has AVC-Intra 100 for about the same price as the AF100's (actually about a grand more, but still in the $5K range). Regardless of P2 and the better codec, the HPX250 has a more complex imaging block and a 20x lens, both of which should have made it considerably more expensive to produce than than the AF100, but the difference is actually pretty small. Additionally, Panasonic has announced an extension to the AVC-Ultra "family" of codecs, AVC-LongGop, which supports 10-bit 4:2:2 at 25- to 50-Mbps data rates. I expect Panasonic to release products with the codec in 2012. Unless Canon becomes more proactive, if it announces a 4:2:0 S35 camera on the 3rd, that will be the best large-sensor prosumer Canon camera available until 2013 or 2014.
It is, however, only 8-bit. Any "digital cinema" camera should support at least 10-bit output, especially from here on out.
Actually it's the XA10 and it comes with 4:2:0 AVCHD. I do believe the new s35 cam will be the xf codec and not the avchd one.
Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
How are you, mate? I hadn't seen yet unless now.
Epic all the way (that is the camera) 2 units of X model, very very likely (no idea yet about how many when/if Epic-S ;-)
The upcoming Canon's FF is very promising too.
But there are two cheap cameras (hacked GH2 even for professional work! and NEX-5N) right now which have much amazed myself.
Cheers,
E
(PS) Done, posted now in the right place:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?261743-Rumor-Canon-4k-super35-camera&p=2460992#post2460992
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Yes, that's true. But the XA10 is only $1800. So to be more precise, Canon's lowest end XF-series tapeless camcorder at $3000. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think any other manufacturer has included 4:2:2 at that price range at this time. I read that Canon pissed off Sony for doing that.
From the 1Dx and its All-I codec, we see that Canon understands codecs. So I think it's safe to believe that a new cinema camera with potential Alexa image quality isn't going to be crippled by a bad codec.
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Chris Adler
Veteran
I think its cute how most people speculating in here seems to hoping that Canon's going to announce a "Hollywood-ready" cinema camera that competes with an Alexa but price it for poor independent filmmakers. If they are really going to compete with the digital cinema cameras in use in Hollywood today they're going to price it accordingly, which is out of reach of 99% of the users here for anything except rentals. That is, of course, assuming they are even going to announce a camera.
that would have been true, before the F3.
The F3 is very, very close to Alexa, image wise (and it sounds like the coming upgrade will bring it right up to 14.5 stops DR)
An Alexa quality camera at F3 prices or even less by Canon is realistic, IMO. There's actually not much to these cameras. There aren't any moving parts inside them anymore, except for maybe a filter wheel. They're just computers...an image sensor and circuit boards. Populated circuits boards are extremely cheap, especially non-mil-spec. It's the sensor and and custom processing chips that cost money.
The advantage Canon has that they're vertically integrated (they make both the image sensor and the chips) and they have the still photography market to subsidize R&D in other areas. A huge amount of R&D is spent here, but it's for their still photography market. So this all gets subsidized by this larger market, allowing them to produce products at lower cost. Canon also has a huge amount of experience in image processing and achieving low noise.
Arri and Red lack these three things that Canon have: they don't make their own chips, they don't have the same manufacturing muscle and they don't have a huge still photography market to accelerate and finance R&D.
The only other company close to the same scenario as Canon is Sony.
The advantage Canon has that they're vertically integrated (they make both the image sensor and the chips) and they have the still photography market to subsidize R&D in other areas. A huge amount of R&D is spent here, but it's for their still photography market. So this all gets subsidized by this larger market, allowing them to produce products at lower cost. Canon also has a huge amount of experience in image processing and achieving low noise.
Arri and Red lack these three things that Canon have: they don't make their own chips, they don't have the same manufacturing muscle and they don't have a huge still photography market to accelerate and finance R&D.
The only other company close to the same scenario as Canon is Sony.
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Exactly, I'd say close, not very close
and if neither Canon or Red deliver something better at a similar price point, people will just continue buying the F3, it is without question a great camera. The only thing missing from the F3 (if you need it) is maybe 3 or 4k and a better internal codec. I do love how much speculation/rumors are flying now about these cameras though, we only have 2 days to go, everyone's so impatient...haha.
Its not quite that simple.
The reason the alexa is 80k is that its DSP is a miracle. It processes the image like no other camera.
The F3 IS amazing, but its no Alexa.
Barry_Green
Moderator
And the Alexa's rolling shutter is pretty miraculous too. It performs almost exactly like movie film does, and the F3 doesn't, it performs just like all the other rolling shutter cameras.
Joost
Well-known member
I think that if the scarlet don't have a F35 sensor, RED get slapped in the face by Canon. It really is exciting, and even more for RED an Canon than for the consumers.
It al depends on a few features. Price, Sensor, Codex, DR are the most inportant. We all know for sure that RED is still far ahead on codex, and will have 18 stops (!!!!!!!!). Canon has to give allot to beat that.
I think Canon will beat RED on sensor and price.
I really can't stop talking about 3 november, my girl forbid me to talk about camera's for a while
It al depends on a few features. Price, Sensor, Codex, DR are the most inportant. We all know for sure that RED is still far ahead on codex, and will have 18 stops (!!!!!!!!). Canon has to give allot to beat that.
I think Canon will beat RED on sensor and price.
I really can't stop talking about 3 november, my girl forbid me to talk about camera's for a while
The magic is in the sensor, the DSP and the algorithms. The rest of it is just a computer pushing data around.
ARRI is a film movie camera company that only has some recent history with digital imaging. Alexa is really only their third try, after the D20 and D21.
Canon has a lot more digital imaging experience than ARRI, albeit mainly in still photography. But they have a lot of sensor expertise. They've made a 120 MP sensor and an entire wafer size sensor. There's a lot of R&D going on in the bowels of Canon. They've designed five generations of image processing chips. IMO, I have no doubt Canon can match if not exceed ARRI's expertise. Perhaps not in these first few cameras, but Canon's corporate strategy is to "Achieve the overwhelming No. 1 position in all core businesses."
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HDRx isn't something that can be used on every shot.... The only samples I have seen have been static shots with little movement. Once we see handheld action shots with HDRx on, we might be able to start talking about it as a usable tool.
But for now, the Epic is around a 13 stop DR camera. (very respectable)