puredrifting
Major Contributor
Wow, Ph.D. level dissertation of resolution. Nice. Most of it a bit above my head but very interesting nonetheless.
Thanks,
Dan
Thanks,
Dan
rolling shutter hxp300?
- Thread starter xmephestox
- Start date
Keep in mind that I'm not trolling around here, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Panasonic advocate - especially as it relates to AVC-Intra and DVCProHD. That's why I was invited to a sneak three weeks ago. I don't shoot doorframes for a living either, but I get PureDrifting's point about what matters in real-world shooting.
We were in a room at a flagship dealer's showroom without charts or the benefit of any testing equipment. Just us, a nice new monitor and the HPX300. So, I did what I would do when shooting reality and narrative film. Pan from a door with a subject as they entered the room. Not some crazy, trumped up ambush technique - just a steady, smooth pan both from the shoulder and from a Vinten tripod. Do it for yourself, I'm not selling anything here. Just reporting what we saw. The rep was just as surprised as the engineers Barry talked about in his test at Panasonic. He wasn't happy, and neither was I. I was there to buy one.
I've had discussions with other photographers who use Panasonic to a great extent and they have had the same reaction to the 300 out of 1080/60i mode. With the Panasonic rep, we did test 720/24pN, 720/30p, 1080/60i, 1080/24pN, 1080/30p and the skew manifested in all of them, but as Barry Green discovered [separately], not so much in 1080/60i. Which he has explained made good sense.
I think this will be fixed to the extent that CMOS can be "fixed" and that this whole thread will be a good bit of history except for those trying to debunk the old rumors of rolling-shutter on the 300. It might not be this week, but I'd put my money on them figuring it out in good time. 1080/24pN is too good and important a feature-set to simply blow-off by telling people to not use it.
e
We were in a room at a flagship dealer's showroom without charts or the benefit of any testing equipment. Just us, a nice new monitor and the HPX300. So, I did what I would do when shooting reality and narrative film. Pan from a door with a subject as they entered the room. Not some crazy, trumped up ambush technique - just a steady, smooth pan both from the shoulder and from a Vinten tripod. Do it for yourself, I'm not selling anything here. Just reporting what we saw. The rep was just as surprised as the engineers Barry talked about in his test at Panasonic. He wasn't happy, and neither was I. I was there to buy one.
I've had discussions with other photographers who use Panasonic to a great extent and they have had the same reaction to the 300 out of 1080/60i mode. With the Panasonic rep, we did test 720/24pN, 720/30p, 1080/60i, 1080/24pN, 1080/30p and the skew manifested in all of them, but as Barry Green discovered [separately], not so much in 1080/60i. Which he has explained made good sense.
I think this will be fixed to the extent that CMOS can be "fixed" and that this whole thread will be a good bit of history except for those trying to debunk the old rumors of rolling-shutter on the 300. It might not be this week, but I'd put my money on them figuring it out in good time. 1080/24pN is too good and important a feature-set to simply blow-off by telling people to not use it.
e
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Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
And again I ask where in this thread does it show or say that I have or Panaosnic has blown people's opinions off.
Thanks,
jan
I pretty clearly indicated that I didn't think Panasonic would [blow it off].
e
e
Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
Hi Eric,
Well you did and you didn't. Point is that we are studying the issue.
Best,
jan
Well you did and you didn't. Point is that we are studying the issue.
Best,
jan
Okay, I'm not the enemy. You do what you do and I'll continue advocating for Panasonic at every turn.
e
e
Kenn Christenson
Well-known member
Are there any indications this is a "fixable" issue? With the understanding that the artifacts created by the CMOS sensors can not be fully eliminated.
Jan, I tried to PM you with a letter I sent to a History Channel producer just tonight prior to logging-in to DVXUser. Your PM box might be too full!
Anyway, she has a nervous and new Avid editor not experienced in P2 and was asking about doing our next project in HDV.
I put myself in front of her and offered to help talk the newbie through import and file structure and to sing the praises of P2HD (AVC-Intra and DVCProHD) over long-GOP formats.
It is more indicative of what I'm about. I often call it like I see it and perhaps have become too accustomed to having you around here to filter our observations up to Panasonic.
No harm intended and I remain a fan of yours and the products you represent so well.
Yours,
e
Erik A Olson
erik@expeditionfilmpartners.com
Anyway, she has a nervous and new Avid editor not experienced in P2 and was asking about doing our next project in HDV.
I put myself in front of her and offered to help talk the newbie through import and file structure and to sing the praises of P2HD (AVC-Intra and DVCProHD) over long-GOP formats.
It is more indicative of what I'm about. I often call it like I see it and perhaps have become too accustomed to having you around here to filter our observations up to Panasonic.
No harm intended and I remain a fan of yours and the products you represent so well.
Yours,
e
Erik A Olson
erik@expeditionfilmpartners.com
I have a distinct feeling that it can be attenuated but not necessarily eliminated completely.
What I hope further is that whatever occurs can be implemented via firmware, and hopeful still that we can get some direction relatively soon on what is feasible and how it is implemented if feasible.
DavidNJ
Carbonite Member
Erik, there is nothing wrong with temporal compression anymore than their is with spacial (DCT) or chroma compression (subsampling). Still, AVC Intra is the only high bandwidth H.264 out there ttbomk.
Actually, its 720p24 mode, at 40Mb/s is probably its weakest suit. The HMC150 does H.264 at 25Mb/s with temporal compression (long GOP) and is probably fair close (10-bits and 4:2:2 not with standing). However, 80Mb/s at 1080p24 should be outstanding.
The politics around this seem to be getting charged. On one hand there are relative insiders with access to the camera who what to say what there saw. On the other, there is Panasonic with a great new camera trying to avoid a negative buzz.
In the end I think both groups will be happy. By all accounts it has a feature set and build quality that will make it a new standard in that price class. That in turn is creating pressure inside Panasonic to figure out what when wrong and fix it. The sensors are small (in the sense of photo site count, not physical) size at 2Mp. If you scan them fast enough...should the skew go down? Hopefully it is a simple firmware clock fix, either an oversight or a workaround for a problem for which another, better alternative exists.
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Kenn Christenson
Well-known member
I hated to do it, but I decided to hold off and cancel my order for this camera until all the dust settles around the amount of skew present in 1080. (And YES, I know skew will always be a factor with the current generation of CMOS chips.)
DavidNJ
Carbonite Member
I would imagine you would be safe. The odds are it will be a firmware fix. If it requires a hardware change, it would be under warranty and Panasonic goodwill.
In the meantime, it is the best pro camera out the door on your shoulder for under $12k (with 2 16GB P2s). Everything less expensive has a lot more plastic. The only exception IMHO is if you were going to go through the Canon hassle to get its fantastic production quality.
In the meantime, it is the best pro camera out the door on your shoulder for under $12k (with 2 16GB P2s). Everything less expensive has a lot more plastic. The only exception IMHO is if you were going to go through the Canon hassle to get its fantastic production quality.
Kenn Christenson
Well-known member
No thanks. I dealt with cumbersome post with the Red and have no wish to go back to that. Plus, variable frame rate is a key feature for me.
I was an early adopter of P2 and love the workflow. The HPX300 is definitely still high on my list and I look forward to jumping in when it's all worked out.
Cees Mutsaers
Veteran
So what is the status at the moment? Did you buy the HPX300 and if so does it fulfill your requirements ??