Ridiculously cheap Craigslist ad looking for editor
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I hope that $5 pay is enough to buy you another jar for when you later hate yourself more for taking the job
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Not to insult our profession, but what we do is now largely viewed as a valueless commodity. It's not really these ridiculous ads that bother me, it's the ones for minimum wage or around that where the client expects you to bring tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment plus your skills for around or less than minimum wage. I don't blame clients, I blame the young "pros" who live rent free with mommy and daddy, who have been bought or somehow acquired hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of gear who actually do some of these jobs, often at a decent level of competence. For those of us with mortgages, families, braces, kids in college, there is no way to compete and all they have done is lowered the market price and destroyed the perceived value of our services.
Fortunately, I have clients who see the value of my skills and expertise and my steadfast reliability and are willing to pay me good money to provide those services. But I feel sorry for anyone trying to actually make a living producing video without a network of established clients, it's much tougher now than it was 20 years ago when I was in the same boat.
Fortunately, I have clients who see the value of my skills and expertise and my steadfast reliability and are willing to pay me good money to provide those services. But I feel sorry for anyone trying to actually make a living producing video without a network of established clients, it's much tougher now than it was 20 years ago when I was in the same boat.
Run&Gun
Veteran
And most of the kids don't even realize what they have done(are doing). They're 20-22 yrs old with no bills, so ANY money is a lot of money to them AND they're "working". "$500 to shoot your music video?! Hell yes!" "You want that shot on a RED Weapon Helium with Master Primes? No problem, Daddy just got me the MP's for my birthday last week." But I've seen it from "old guys", too. Guys that were staffers most of their career and then decided to go freelance and buy a package. Even though they're undercutting the market, they're still making more than they ever were as staffers, so they don't care. And some are damn good shooters, too. They just undervalued themselves and in-turn devalued the rest of us.
But, the genie is out of the bottle. I don't see how we go back. I still get good rates, but the squeeze is happening everywhere. Two-cam shoots with two ops and audio tech, now are usually one op with two cams and audio. And this is at the network level. I see posts on here all the time from guys that are doing two cameras, audio, lighting and producing the shoot BY THEMSELVES. One damn person...
I go back to what I've been saying for years, technology is a double edged sword. The "good" cheap gear made it a commodity and in turn US. Except at the extremely high levels, pretty soon I see photography(stills and motion) and expensive, quality gear just being in the realm of the rich hobbyist/amateurs. There are companies everyday working on technology to eliminate the camera operator and other companies that are more than ready to eliminate using us to improve their bottom line.
Agafilm
Active member
Volunteers would be easier to find, not sure why people don't just go that route. Although in the SF Bay Craigslist 'no pay' gigs, no matter how legitimate, get attacked like fresh meat in a shark tank. While this is an extreme example, it's important for people to keep in mind who their competition is. If people can do your job for your clients at half the price, that's the new price. If they can't, which is undoubtedly the case here, it doesn't hurt you. Your market isn't going to see this ad and say 'hey, why are we paying real rates for this broadcast spot? Offer a gift card instead!'.
Editing in particular, some jobs don't actually require any skill. Some clients have projects so meaningless that literally anyone could do it. Sometimes producers and production companies send proxy files to India, where a professional level editor can work on the project for $5/hr. Complaining doesn't help with that, being in denial doesn't. Markets don't exist in a vacuum. And this one hit oversaturation a decade ago. It's a constant battle of stepping up your services and adding value for real clients, with limited chance of increasing your income doing so. That's just reality now. Someday this guy's post might not be so unrealistic, though I'd hope he could learn to use Windows Movie Maker enough to get $5 worth of quality by the time that happens.
I feel like this is a line that deserves some thoughts, but I'm not going to take it today.
Editing in particular, some jobs don't actually require any skill. Some clients have projects so meaningless that literally anyone could do it. Sometimes producers and production companies send proxy files to India, where a professional level editor can work on the project for $5/hr. Complaining doesn't help with that, being in denial doesn't. Markets don't exist in a vacuum. And this one hit oversaturation a decade ago. It's a constant battle of stepping up your services and adding value for real clients, with limited chance of increasing your income doing so. That's just reality now. Someday this guy's post might not be so unrealistic, though I'd hope he could learn to use Windows Movie Maker enough to get $5 worth of quality by the time that happens.
I feel like this is a line that deserves some thoughts, but I'm not going to take it today.
I know there's a lot of doom and gloom, but I still there's money to be made. No matter how cheap the tools get, there will always be a need for video. Unless we go back to the stone age because of some nuclear war, production of video will only increase.
Lots people on r/editors report making good money working as AEs in larger markets. Solidly livable wages, and there's a fair amount who makes what I would consider to be a lot of money. Sounds like 90% of it is reality TV, but there's definitely money in that field.
Weddings get laughed at, but if you get in the mid-high end range, you can make solid, reliable money. People will always be growing up and getting married.
People around here make good money, but then they seem to foolishly blow it on expensive gear, way beyond what is necessary for their scale of work. I know lots of productions call for Alexas, Reds etc... but I see a ton of people using those cameras who could honestly get by with a GH5 for their production value level.
I've seen some older folks complain about how they used to be able to charge 5K for some talking head basic corporate video. But then when I look at the calibre of work, 5K seems *way* over priced. I'd love to get it, but I'm not surprised those days are gone.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
I will be brutally honest here, I love my job, I generally make more money than the average mid level manager at a corporation, but if I could go back in time with what I know now, I wouldn't touch production with a ten foot pole. There are so many jobs that are frankly easier where you can earn so much more money, it's ridiculous. I have several friends who average between 1-3 million dollars per year gross and they work far fewer hours than I do and they don't have to continually buy new gear, just to keep up in their fields. None are as fun as my job or offer as much adventure but all of these friends have ten times in retirement funds than I do, own more real estate, drive nicer cars, have nicer houses and can do things on a regular basis in their free time that I just cannot afford. It's kind of a trade off, they are all envious of my job and I am envious of the money, stability and long term reliability of their professions.
When I get asked by kids about production, particularly building a career in production, I frankly try to discourage them unless they are willing to live on a financial roller coaster, always have to spend a disproportionate amount of their income and profits on new gear and have to work more hours than people with a "normal job" to just get by. Our profession is being shaped by forces beyond our control and has been for decades and the work that most of us do is disposable and not valued much anymore. Especially those of use who work in entertainment related ends of the business. When you are young, if you value financial stability, a profession that will always be in demand and working hours that will let you enjoy a family and family life, production is a terrible choice for most. If making enough money so that you don't have to constantly worry about finances is important to you, production is a terrible career. Most people I know who work with in production definitely fall into the "Haves" and "Have Nots" categories. Most of the "craftsman" I know in production struggle, a lot while I know a few producers in particular who lead a charmed life and make a ton of money and have a good time most of the time doing so.
I agree that there is still money in production, but it's getting harder and harder to get a piece of that money.
When I get asked by kids about production, particularly building a career in production, I frankly try to discourage them unless they are willing to live on a financial roller coaster, always have to spend a disproportionate amount of their income and profits on new gear and have to work more hours than people with a "normal job" to just get by. Our profession is being shaped by forces beyond our control and has been for decades and the work that most of us do is disposable and not valued much anymore. Especially those of use who work in entertainment related ends of the business. When you are young, if you value financial stability, a profession that will always be in demand and working hours that will let you enjoy a family and family life, production is a terrible choice for most. If making enough money so that you don't have to constantly worry about finances is important to you, production is a terrible career. Most people I know who work with in production definitely fall into the "Haves" and "Have Nots" categories. Most of the "craftsman" I know in production struggle, a lot while I know a few producers in particular who lead a charmed life and make a ton of money and have a good time most of the time doing so.
I agree that there is still money in production, but it's getting harder and harder to get a piece of that money.
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I agree with all you said here and above. I've seen this business fall down in the last 20+ years. Regarding having the high paid job vs production job, one could live modestly with a high paying job for a number of years while accumulating funds and then get into production. With the major bills paid off the pressure is less and you can better "enjoy" the job you like to do.
If I could go back I would do things differently as well.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems now that gear is more easily accessible one of the key ways to differentiate yourself from the masses is by way of customer service. The other guy may have two FS7s also, but does he know how to sell and please customers?
What avenues of this biz do you guys see as still worthwile?
Weddings were mentioned above. The bottom has fallen out of those also due to the same influx of youth and gear, but the higher end ones are worthwile.
The talking heads corporate shoots used to pay 20 years ago with 2 cameras but now some are using iPhones. Good audio helps here.
Corporate training videos can pay IF you can land the better clients.
Local TV commercials seem to be OK, again if you can land the better clients.
Events used to recquire multiple cameras which limited the competition but now that cameras are so cheap not so much. And guys will do it super cheap with 1 camera now.
National TV ads I have limited experience in.
Television shows?
It seems maybe the best area to get into are the ones where the average Joe can't because he doesn't have the crew, gear or selling skills. But how much of that is left and how well does it pay now?
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Trying to make a living doing weddings and events is still a possibility but it seems that many of the people who make real money doing this approach it like an assembly line. Think about it, is it smarter for you to spend your time at a wedding shoot (these can easily run all day and well into the night) or is it better to hire some eager 20-somethings who will do a good job and you can train how to shoot, light, record sound, etc. From what I see, the downfall of most wedding videographers is that they are just one man banding it or even have a tiny crew of one or two. How does that make you more money when there are requests to cover three different weddings, all on the same day? If you have two or three crews available, not on staff or salary, that seems that as a producer, that could make you a lot more money than trying to shoot everything yourself. Bottom line is be scalable and have a lot of people and equipment resources. Same with editing said weddings and events. They are time consuming and tedious to edit as there is typically a PILE of footage from multiple cameras and it has to be shaped into a concise chronological story. Most brides don't want to a pay a per hour editing charge, they want to pay a flat fee for everything.
I would seriously consider setting up an editing workflow to India, eastern Europe or China for this, weddings are pretty cookie cutter, usually they all have the same events unless they are a big Indian wedding or other culture that approaches weddings like a multi day rock concert. Having a team of editors you could have cutting for a low wage of say $5.00 to $8.00 per hour, stock graphics and template builds means you could streamline and make the post part not nearly as tedious and time consuming for you. And like everything else in our business, it is all about networking, showing at bridal fairs, building relationships with wedding planners. Even most high end wedding videos are not going to surpass $10k from what I see so you have to do a LOT of volume. As a producer, I would devote at least half of my time to just marketing, networking and booking jobs. You would have to do volume to net more than $80k per year, IMHO. Possible, but not easy. Same with events, get tied in with event planning companies and AV rental houses but building those relationships is challenging. There are people making a living from weddings and or events but you need to approach it like running a production company, not one man banding it yourself IMHO.
Coroporate video is cyclical. It alternates between doing everything in-house and using your in-house video dept. as a profit center to firing the whole department and outsourcing everything. It can be difficult to build relationships with Fortune 200 Corp Comm managers as everyone wants to get their foot in the door. Also, there is the "Wow, this managers son went to film school or Mary in Marketing is pretty good with her iPhone and iMovie" factor. The other obstacle is most of the really desirable corporations have strong relationships with their ad agencies, who they pay incredible sums of money to and those ad agencies either have their own video departments or have "Their guy" who they have worked with for years. Two years ago, I finally landed a Fortune 200 I have been pursuing for two more years before. I got my foot in the door there because someone I knew through my son's Boy Scout troop was their CFO. I worked with him for years with Scouting functions, we became casual friends and I eventually asked him if he could introduce me to their director of Marketing. We had lunch and I was in. They have been slow to ramp up but this past year I finally surpassed $100k in billings from them, which is not a large client for me, but a significant one that I hope to grow even larger. You also have to be willing to step outside of your box. I am a writer/DP/Producer and most of my work with this company has been motion graphics and 3D animation. It's not my ideal work, I prefer live action, but if they want to hire me to write and produce motion graphics and animation, that's still business with good profit margins.
I am currently working on landing work with a Fortune 100 Healthcare Provider who I have also been pursuing for years. I finally got a lunch with their video manager and he liked me, my company and our work. He has said he will be giving me work. But that was months ago and so far, I keep checking in with him and they are slow but they tend to ramp up with work later in the year. A friend who introduced me to the manager also does a good amount of production work for them and he keeps me in the loop about when they get busy, etc. So you have to have patience with these clients, it can take years to land them. This healthcare provider, when thy are busy, uses up six other production companies at once so there is no way I will get an exclusive with them, but if I can grow them up to $200 to $400k of billings per year, I will be happy with that.
Really, really difficult when a lot of cable and air providers throw in free video production when they book an big enough air time package. Local spots, at least where I live, are a dead issue for the most part. They mostly look awful and nothing but moving Pennysaver Ads. I used to direct some regional spots for some chains through ad agencies and those were good but once again, very difficult to break in to, you have to know ALL of the right players at the ad agencies and they have to champion you to their clients.
Very insular world. Not easy to get a shot at doing these. Once again, do you golf, party or socialize with the staff of high end agencies? Because if you don't, good luck.
Not easy to get onto crew for real television production unless you have enough hours and want to spend the money to join the union. And even then, who do you know who DPs or department heads or produces TV shows who will hire you? It is possible but not easy. And the TV landscape is shifting under our feet. In a nutshell, the old guard, the cable networks and TV networks are dying a fairly rapid death. The OTTs like Netflix, Amazon and Hulu have all of the money and are spending it while the studios are constricting and slashing budgets and production schedules. So who do the OTTs hire to produce content? Their established partners. Not noobs at it.
You left out Government Work. Quite a few production companies make a LOT of money doing work for the government and or military. But you have to jump through a LOT of hoops to even become eligible to bid on government and military projects. If you are not a minority or woman owned business for these jobs, you are at a disadvantage. I do a lot of shooting for a regional transportation client. But the production company is a woman owned business owned by a producer I work for. She has shown me all of the paperwork required, getting on the bench, RFP, governmental, safety and regulatory processes she has to jump through and it is daunting and ALL prodcos who work for the government and or military have to jump through these same hoops. Often an RFP will go out and fifty companies will bid and often the bid simply goes to the lowest qualified bidder. Many of these clients approach video production as a commodity and often the contingencies leave you vulnerable to actually losing money if X, Y and Z happen to occur. Goverment video can be tempting but it is not an easy world to navigate and to be profitable in.
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Run&Gun
Veteran
Yes
alaskacameradude
Veteran
The more I read threads like this, the more I wonder if living in a smaller market might actually help. So much
competition in places like NY and LA. Smaller places there is less work, but it's easier to become known as
'the guy to see' when anyone needs some work. Also helpful if there is a lot of money/people with lots of disposable
income in your market (which leads to businesses and organizations with income.)
Of course I also think luck plays more into it than some people would like to admit.
So in conclusion, yeah, it's kinda like the lottery.....
competition in places like NY and LA. Smaller places there is less work, but it's easier to become known as
'the guy to see' when anyone needs some work. Also helpful if there is a lot of money/people with lots of disposable
income in your market (which leads to businesses and organizations with income.)
Of course I also think luck plays more into it than some people would like to admit.
So in conclusion, yeah, it's kinda like the lottery.....
jamedia.uk
Well-known member
They can also afford to retire early and have fun doing what you do without having to make a living at it..... Something to be said for taking that route. the problem video/film people are going to get is the one still photographers have suffered for the last decade.
When the DSLR reached >=10MP and came down in price anyone with a remote interest in photography could afford a camera that was as good as a pro's camera. Also pictures were "free" no buying film or having to pay to have it developed & printed. "good enough" inkjet printers were in every house. Then the phones started to get cameras (in most of the first world where there is >95% mobile phone coverage "everyone" has a mobile phone and has done so for the last decade). Couple this with the rise in social media and the similar spread of ADSL there are more and more photographs being taken and shared by more and more people without needing any professionals and the images are "good enough" I saw a pro photographer set up in the mall to do baby, children and mother/baby photos..... no takers in the hour or so I was in the mall. "everyone" now uses their phone and Facebook/instergram and the like.
At the same time there was a huge increase in people wanting to take up photography as it was now "democratised" the colleges were throwing out 100's more young enthusiastic photographers. Still photography is now dying as a profession. Especially as news agencies now trawl Facebook for images and smart phone images are "good enough"
Now both the DSLR's and the smart phones can do HD video. Many still photographers are doing stills and videos. Many wedding togs are being asked for videos as well (included in the price obviously) Though most of the guests will also have HD video cameras on their phones and have posted it to Facebook, youtube etc whilst at the wedding. Re weddings, many set themselves up to do weddings with the cheapest DSLR/s and laptops they could find and under cut the established pro's (normally by not being a proper business and paying taxes)
Thus the video industry is being attacked from the Still photography industry and the public at large.
The still photographers discovered that many companies had a hobby photographer who could take the shots for the company Press releases, product shots, web site pictures and events etc as part of their normal employment even if the company sprung for a £500 DSLR and photoshop elements. Pro togs started to loose out (and move into Video) However these same company employees are also able to shoot video.....
Now we are seeing the same happen for video. "everyone" can do video and pictures. I can do it, my mate can do it, my kid's can do it hell, even my 87 year old mum can do it! Not as well as you but "good enough" and the difference between "good enough" and perfect is, to an untrained eye worth $5 That is the problem and it isn't going to get any better.
Saw this ad on New York Craigslist this week...
https://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/cpg/6084460416.html
View attachment 122696
Not only is $5 absurdly low, but the ad is posted by someone in Manhattan, NYC.
Not only are rents incredibly high, even everyday items are insanely expensive. $5 is not even lunch.
There's a lot of cheap ads on there that state they're offering "easy" tasks and you "just" have to do this.
If it's so easy, just do it yourself.
Can confirm: Lunch today was falafel, greek salad and a diet coke. $14 with tip.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
The other factor is the "robot economy" Have been continually reading and hearing that a vast majority of physical labor jobs as well as driving, strategy, etc. are going to be taken over by non human workers over the next two decades. There is no reason why intelligent drones with ridiculuously high resolution audio and video gathering ability could not replace the vast majority of camera ops, cameramen, etc. by then. Same with editing, there are already algorithms, AI, learned intelligence in computing that will make much of editing and post production possible by automation and computing. How much of what people consume for media is true, imperfect art versus just competently shot video content made by professionals? Not saying there will be no more jobs in production but a lot of what WE do today as cinematographers, cameramen, sound mixers, editors may be largely performed by computers within a decade or two. This all sounds like futuristic sci-fi but the experts and engineers assure us that this is coming, the same as driverless cars. Not quite here yet but soon enough they will be.
Yep. This has definitely been on my mind. A lot of work that pays the bills is often fairly paint by numbers. Hell, facebook has already started automatically pumping out highlights and slideshows. Robotics and high speed internet enabling outsourcing are definite concerns for the future of this industry.
Jobs dealing with people on complicated emotional levels are going to be the most bullet proof. Social workers, etc..
I have the winning numbers. For a small seven figure fee, they can be yours.
LA and NYC have a lot more low end work - as the one pontificated - but also a lot more high end work. The difference will be in the shape of the curve.
Yummy. Expensive but yummy.
Some parts of film making - doco and creative - will always be under control of the humans. Others can easily be performed by the robots in the sense that a single person (a director/DP) will be able to control multiple cameras and their movement, exposure, aperture, etc, along with lighting, actors blocking, etc. Unfortunately, Frank Coppolla's "live movie" isn't available online. To do this currently, one needs a huge labor force. The next generation tech, this labor force will shrink and then shrink further.
As to the whole video industry, the concept is similar to that of sewing. Once Singer machines became available en masse, the need for the high end pro sewing has diminished, with the exception of the high end clothing. Everyone with basic talents and desire to sew became a presentable tailor until it became cheaper to buy the ready-to-wear items in a department store.