Reply From Nikon About My Camera Issue.

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Buddy Rock

New member
Please could someone tell me if what Nikon Support say is correct?

I've been filming recently and discovered that my D5000 adds a lot of grain to the film.

The video to show the graininess is here:
http://vimeo.com/25628027

I sent Nikon UK an email to air my concerns.

My 1st email:

[FONT=&quot]I bought my D5000 last year in March and have recently started filming on it.

I've noticed the movie is very grainy even with low and high ISO settings.

My shutter speed is always kept between 50-100. I've even tried it much higher but to no avail.

The movie settings are always on 720p.

My aperture makes no difference, I can shoot at f/1.8 or f/22 and still get the grain.

I have 3 lenses (2 primes and a standard kit lens) and I get the same grainy look.

I have attached a short example of the footage. It's shot in ample daylight with the grain very visible.

I'm thinking this could be a camera issue.

[/FONT]
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John's response (1st Email):
[FONT=&quot]Thank you for your email.

I don't necessarily think the camera is under-performing here as we can't be sure how high the ISO is being set - this is not a setting that the camera notes during the recording of a video. In fact, you should be aware that the D5000 automatically controls video exposure through altering the sensitivity of the sensor on-the-fly. As such, you actually have no control of the ISO during video recording, regardless of what you set it to prior to starting the recording of the video. With this in mind, it's also worth noting that:

a) The darker scene being recorded, the higher the ISO is automatically set

b) Setting a narrow aperture (ie. high f/ number) on the lens prior to opening LiveView will also limit the light going through the lens to the sensor and would make the sensor have to raise it's ISO in order to obtain a correct exposure during video recording

c) A contributing factor to this would also be the compression applied to videos that the camera produces

As such, the higher the ISO is automatically set and coupled with the compression applied this can lead to a mottling effect that can be seen most obviously in the darker parts of a scene - as exemplified in his submitted video.Taking that into consideration, it's possible that the results you have submitted may be considered within the expected operation of the camera.

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My response (2nd email):
[FONT=&quot]Hi John[/FONT]

 [FONT=&quot]Thanks for your email.[/FONT]

 [FONT=&quot]So are you saying that I cannot adjust any setting in video mode when in Live View?[/FONT]

 [FONT=&quot]I understand ISO cannot be adjusted during Live View but surely I can set it prior to filming. I have done this already and kept it below 400. I’ve even tried increasing it prior to Live View.[/FONT]

 [FONT=&quot]As you can see from the footage I sent you, that scene is not dark in the slightest. There’s plenty of diffused light coming thru the persplex sheets where I filmed. When I take the camera into the garden, I’m using straight sunlight and I still get graininess. If the camera is adjusting the ISO in dark situations, why do I get graininess in bright, well light settings?[/FONT]

 [FONT=&quot]I set most things prior to Live View including the Aperture. I’ve tried on lower f stops to allow more light in but I get the same issues.[/FONT]

 [FONT=&quot]I’ve seen various D500 videos on youtube without this issue. You can do a search yourself. They’re even filming in more extreme situations. Their compression settings and automatic ISOs are not affecting the overall video. These are standard kit lenses being used.[/FONT]

 [FONT=&quot]Please provide me a solution as I’ve already tried the approached you suggested.[/FONT]

 [FONT=&quot]I thought it might be the firmware but I have the latest.[/FONT]
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John's response (2nd Email)
[FONT=&quot]Thank you for your email.

Yes, there is unfortunately very little control that the D5000 affords in terms of exposure of it's videos clips and the camera will alter it's own ISO as it sees fit depending on the brightness of the scene filling the frame at the time. To exemplify this, if you were to point the camera at the sky when recording a video or when in LiveView and then quickly recompose the camera so that a comparatively darker area fills the frame, you should see the camera automatically adjusting itself to make the camera expose the darker scene better - where it is effectively changing it's sensitivity (ISO) to a higher setting to enable it to see and expose the darker scene better.

We unfortunately cannot judge the level of brightness in the submitted scene as the camera would have changed and chosen a sensitivity to make it record the scene as brightly as possible - even to the detriment of the videos recorded ISO noise. The user has no ability to limit the ISO that the camera uses in video exposure as the camera has no other way of ensuring correct exposure in videos.

In addition, we cannot compare the result you are getting in your scene with other videos from other D5000 bodies that were taken of different scenes as it's simply not an appropriate way of testing if your camera is working correctly. Applicable tests like this would involve testing two of the same body with the same lens in the same environment under the same lighting conditions and then comparing the results - without performing such tests we cannot be sure if your camera is under-performing at present and can currently only comment that the camera is exhibiting an effect that it can very possibly produce when under specific conditions.

If you want to have the camera checked in the service centre then you can of course feel free to do so, but we cannot guarantee what action will be taken there when we cannot determine for definite if the camera is working correctly or not.

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Surely I should'nt get this much grain from filming. What is the point in purchasing a HD capable camera when the film achieves a cheap cellphone lookin result?

Please help guys.
 
Doesn't look all that noisy or grainy to me. Looks soft, aliased and blocky from the quality of the video encoding. Not sure exposure is going to affect that much.

Just because a camera records an HD format image file doesn't mean it will produce a high quality HD image. Is there a 1080p option? Are you using fast high quality HD capture rated memory cards? If the card is slow, some cameras reduce the encoding bitrate to keep from dropping frames.
 
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I laughed at the fact that Nikon support acknowledges the fact that, "Yes, there is unfortunately very little control that the D5000 affords in terms of exposure of it's videos clips and the camera will alter it's own ISO as it sees fit depending on the brightness of the scene filling the frame at the time"
I remember seing the adds proclaiming it as a real production tool. Production tools with no control that is...
 
Hey Razz,

You might be right. I bought 2 'SD' cards, by Sandisk, on Ebay a while back. They didn't have the original sandisk label. The seller informed me that he buys in bulk and no packaging or correct labels were included.

He was a power seller so I trusted the reviews he had.

This is what it looked like (ignore the company logo at the bottom):

sandisk_4gb_sdhc_card.jpg

I've just ordered this SDHC card from mymemory.co.uk
http://www.mymemory.co.uk/SDHC/Integral/Integral-8GB-Ultima-Pro-SD-Card-%28SDHC%29---Class-6

Hopefully this does the trick.

If it does, lesson learned. Don't buy rubbish!
 
Spot on.

It's like, you bought the camera now you deal with it.

I've seen a lot of videos filmed by the D5000 and they look much sharper than mine.

I just wanted some advice on what to do.

Boncrek said:
I laughed at the fact that Nikon support acknowledges the fact that, "Yes, there is unfortunately very little control that the D5000 affords in terms of exposure of it's videos clips and the camera will alter it's own ISO as it sees fit depending on the brightness of the scene filling the frame at the time"
I remember seing the adds proclaiming it as a real production tool. Production tools with no control that is...
Click to expand...
 
This is all very old news. The D5000 is a cheaper version of the D90 which was horrendous in its video capabilities and a great stills camera. Its time to let go of the D90 and D5000, they were just experiments from Nikon. The D7000 is much improved on the video side and the D5100 is somewhat improved on that department.
 
Try a clip on a stationary subject and make sure that the focus is good.
The clip you shared looks more out of focus than grainy.
 
Even for my use of a D90 that's bad footage, but I don't see any grain or noise in that video, I see what razz sees: block codec mess.

I've not used a D5000 but I presume the video would be the same as the D90, and to that effect which of the video quality's and sizes are you using as the D90 had several but only ever used 720p mode. (which you will notice the dreadfully stairs which you need to fix in the post).
 
Try a clip on a stationary subject and make sure that the focus is good.
The clip you shared looks more out of focus than grainy.
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Yes focus is perfect when stationary.

Marc Holmes said:
Even for my use of a D90 that's bad footage, but I don't see any grain or noise in that video, I see what razz sees: block codec mess.

I've not used a D5000 but I presume the video would be the same as the D90, and to that effect which of the video quality's and sizes are you using as the D90 had several but only ever used 720p mode. (which you will notice the dreadfully stairs which you need to fix in the post).
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Yes the black blocks are too visible and distracting to me.

Do you not get black codec mess once your raw video has been exported?

H.264 is the codec I use in FCP to reduce video size. Even without a codec, the result is the same.

How would I remove block mess in FCP? Would they completely disappear?
 
Buddy Rock said:
Yes focus is perfect when stationary.

Yes the black blocks are too visible and distracting to me.

Do you not get black codec mess once your raw video has been exported?

H.264 is the codec I use in FCP to reduce video size. Even without a codec, the result is the same.

How would I remove block mess in FCP? Would they completely disappear?
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I use premier pro not FCP and there are some de blocker filters in there, Dont expect miracles.

This is a project I did in on the D90

<object width="616" height="347"><param name="flashvars" value="videoInfo=/t2/submissionContent?xml=/Member_2788/24PBETTERAUDIO_2_0.flv;1309360487965;HD;SD1qrbs;&vPath=/t2/submissionContent?name=/Member_2788/24PBETTERAUDIO_2_0.flv;1309360487965&shareable=yes&mailerPath=/t2/sendMail.json&counter=/t2/incCounter&baseurl=http://tongal.com"/> <param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"/><embed src="http://tongal.com/swf/tongal_flash_player~32.swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" wmode="transparent" flashvars="videoInfo=/t2/submissionContent?xml=/Member_2788/24PBETTERAUDIO_2_0.flv;1309360487965;HD;SD1qrbs;&vPath=/t2/submissionContent?name=/Member_2788/24PBETTERAUDIO_2_0.flv;1309360487965&mailerPath=&counter=/t2/incCounter&shareable=yes&baseurl=http://tongal.com" width="616" height="347"/></object>

Thats the tongal vid, the original upload video was cleaner (less codec blocks) and the unedited footage from camera was even clearer. There where a lot of problems with the D90 footage (stairs, codec artefacts on the gradients or fast motion, rolling shutter, etc...) even without level of de blocking the codec mess.

I was original asking about the video size as I thought you might be shooting in a lower quality in camera. May be its you card what the video say its bit rate is?
 
hey just quickly i just checked out your other video. http://vimeo.com/25463924 we arent seeing the mess it that video????
UPDATE** I've noticed that the video in the bottom right hand corner is the messy one you showed us. Its could very well be is that the codec blocks are a product of very high noise levels. do a test during mid day (out side) and lock off the Exposure values and write them down. then do the same at night and compare.

I've been looking at and checked the D90 test footage sight and it you look at the sample footage for the people walking on the street at night you get that codec mess
http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/microsite/d90/en/d-movie/

I think that a combination of fast motion plus high noise is what's destroying your video.
 
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Hey Marc

What do u mean lock off the exposure values? If you mean set the exposure to be fixed, I can't do that on my D5000 apparently because the exposure is automatically set.

I could AE-L whilst filming. How do I check the exposure levels after then?
 
Buddy Rock said:
Hey Marc

What do u mean lock off the exposure values? If you mean set the exposure to be fixed, I can't do that on my D5000 apparently because the exposure is automatically set.

I could AE-L whilst filming. How do I check the exposure levels after then?
Click to expand...

AE-L stands for auto exposure lock, have you read the D-movie guide thread at the top it helps explain alot about how to set the camera up. Unfortunately there's no easy/cheap way to check exposures in live view on the nikons (even the new ones) its there biggest complaint. The only way to work it out is to eyeball or use a monitor like a smallhd
 
Buddy Rock said:
Hey Marc

I've always shot movies like that. I just don't understand the black block mess.
Click to expand...

I think its a codec weakness. When the noise is high and the motion is high in a section of the pictures the codec doesn't have the data rate to store the detail of the the noise and motion so some thing has to give and what you get is a black codec mess. The reason its primary the black or dark sections is that they are more effected than others due to the high contrast detail. The reason I said do the test during the day and night was to test the ISO for this problem. This is the problem with all forms of codec they all have certain situations where they make a mess and this seams to be big one for the old D-movie.
 
Buddy Rock said:
I bought 2 'SD' cards, by Sandisk, on Ebay a while back. They didn't have the original sandisk label. The seller informed me that he buys in bulk and no packaging or correct labels were included. He was a power seller so I trusted the reviews he had.
Click to expand...

Yep, that's a counterfeit card - ebay has several messages regarding fake sandisks. Sandisk doesn't sell unlabeled "bulk" cards.
 
Bump

I joined this forum in hope of finding a solution to the initial problem Buddy Rock posted.
I am finding evertime i film the videos look very grany and dirty, and not really in focus.

I am a (very) amateur user and have have only started filming stuff recently with my D5000

Any solution to this grainy issue Buddy Rock?
Also I have a question regarding ISO. I take it ISO can not be edited, and the video sets whatever it thinks is right...If so, why do I have the ability to alter the ISO...

Does the camera alter the ISO settings automatically during filming if i move the camera in and out of different light sources? Or is the ISO locked after recording is pressed? If so, to trick the camera in low light sources, can I shine a light into the lens first to make the camera set a low ISO then film?

I find there is noticable grain in the lit areas and coloured areas as there is in dark areas.

I just cant capture that beautiful looking HD crisp feel I have seen in Nikons demo videos. Does the SD card play a big role in how good a video's quality is? Is there a special type dedicated to video?

Many thanks and sorry for the long read. I hope someone can help.

Thanks,
Paul
 
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