btownproductions
Well-known member
http://philipbloom.co.uk/2009/02/17/broadcast-live-at-earls-court-new-toys/
I may be misinterpretting your post here, but are saying he should intentionally lie to his potential customers to boost his sales?
Remote follow focus for £150/$300
- Thread starter hoarp001
- Start date
http://philipbloom.co.uk/2009/02/17/broadcast-live-at-earls-court-new-toys/
I may be misinterpretting your post here, but are saying he should intentionally lie to his potential customers to boost his sales?
Rodney V. Smith
DVXFest Promo Guru
Now THAT is a concise post and not just bashing for the sake of it. It's actually quite a nice outline for a marketing strategy that I've seen many times over. Many new businesses start at a loss because of the need to get the product out there and into the hands of the consumers. In essence they CREATE the need. And they are able to make up for that loss through the sales of increased prices... but gradually, not all at one. We all like to feel like we're getting a deal after all...
You were absolutely correct about the pricing structure and people's reactions to it. Thank you for clarifying your statement.
about lying to customer.
is it not what marketing essentially is ?
buy my product, you will look better, feel better and healthier, get more succes with women, impress your boss and colleagues, it is the best on the market, you won't find cheaper and finally we build it specially for you. and if you buy a pack of 5, the 6th is free. No chineese child was hurt during the manufacturing process and thanks to its new formula it will save the planet.
Do you really want to say to potential buyers, Hey please, for god sake, buy my stuff because i worked a lot on it and i really need the money to pay my rent or get filthy rich.
"the hocus focus is the best tool for your DSLR if you are a serious player. It is made with the finest material by seasoned professional with best experience in the field. It will allow to deliver the greatest shots to your customers and leave competitors far behind. Additionally it is the most affordable device in its category, while packing the state of the art electronics and mechanics in a compact and sleek design.
If you need a tool that makes the difference, the hocus focus is what you are looking for.
Hocus focus, the magic is in your eyes.
First 100 orders will get a free lanyard. ROHS product"
Blablabla.....
is it not what marketing essentially is ?
buy my product, you will look better, feel better and healthier, get more succes with women, impress your boss and colleagues, it is the best on the market, you won't find cheaper and finally we build it specially for you. and if you buy a pack of 5, the 6th is free. No chineese child was hurt during the manufacturing process and thanks to its new formula it will save the planet.
Do you really want to say to potential buyers, Hey please, for god sake, buy my stuff because i worked a lot on it and i really need the money to pay my rent or get filthy rich.
"the hocus focus is the best tool for your DSLR if you are a serious player. It is made with the finest material by seasoned professional with best experience in the field. It will allow to deliver the greatest shots to your customers and leave competitors far behind. Additionally it is the most affordable device in its category, while packing the state of the art electronics and mechanics in a compact and sleek design.
If you need a tool that makes the difference, the hocus focus is what you are looking for.
Hocus focus, the magic is in your eyes.
First 100 orders will get a free lanyard. ROHS product"
Blablabla.....
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mikkowilson
Steadi-Guru
Ok folks, all of you take a little step back.
You can provide constructive criticism without being mean, and you can respond to heated topics without snipping at each other.
Pete has a product that he is marketing in what he feels is a suitable way to his target market. If you have feedback to his marketing, it's probably appreciated; but such feedback is generally best given in private messages (unless of course there's an issue that demands outside response; then a PM to the mods is the way to do it). Comments on products are always of course welcome on DVXuser (keep it civil!) but once they have been stated, trolling your case isn't cool. Either is name calling like "you're the reason DVXuser is going down hill".
And now back to your regularly scheduled discussion on a Pete's all grown-up DIY project....
- Mikko
You can provide constructive criticism without being mean, and you can respond to heated topics without snipping at each other.
Pete has a product that he is marketing in what he feels is a suitable way to his target market. If you have feedback to his marketing, it's probably appreciated; but such feedback is generally best given in private messages (unless of course there's an issue that demands outside response; then a PM to the mods is the way to do it). Comments on products are always of course welcome on DVXuser (keep it civil!) but once they have been stated, trolling your case isn't cool. Either is name calling like "you're the reason DVXuser is going down hill".
And now back to your regularly scheduled discussion on a Pete's all grown-up DIY project....
- Mikko
I think one thing that hasn't been said is that for the low budget indie crowd who doesn't do this for a living, we don't need a "great" product, we just need a "good enough" product. The HoFo is certainly designed for professionals and it's priced accordingly, but maybe it would be good to have a HoFo "Lite" version with stripped down feature. Maybe a wired unit instead of wireless like you were initially planning build using less expensive materials; sacrifices are okay as long as the basic function works well. Get that version out in the ballpark of $500 and then people will take notice.
The heaven would be cross-over a cheap manual FF like the Dfocus and the HoFo, with an optional motor, driven either wired or wirelless.
This way you can cover all the needs, give a nice start price, allow upgrades, make attractive bundles, even allow the product to be compatible with other brand (the motor and wirelless on other FF), get different size for each modul (different motor for different lense size).
In fact the HoFo is not far from that. The servo is attached to the receiver only by a a cable.
So upgrade of the servo or replacinge the receiver by a manual (electronic) controller is possible.
Just the lack of total (mechanical) manual control is missing. Could be a problem if in the field , the servo goes down.based on what already exist in the market you could imagine.
mechanical FF alone 250$
motor upgrade +150$
wired control +200$
wireless control +500$
additional features (position reading, computer control, dual servo for 3D) +750$
so from 250 to 1850 you could make everybody happy.
For sure , as said previously, these would be at indy level, either for price or quality with a 6 month warranty
If we go into the Zacuto level, just multiply these price by 4, replace plastic with metal, at least with a 2 years warranty
And if we go into the Arri level, multiply by 10 with a lifetime warranty.
This way you can cover all the needs, give a nice start price, allow upgrades, make attractive bundles, even allow the product to be compatible with other brand (the motor and wirelless on other FF), get different size for each modul (different motor for different lense size).
In fact the HoFo is not far from that. The servo is attached to the receiver only by a a cable.
So upgrade of the servo or replacinge the receiver by a manual (electronic) controller is possible.
Just the lack of total (mechanical) manual control is missing. Could be a problem if in the field , the servo goes down.based on what already exist in the market you could imagine.
mechanical FF alone 250$
motor upgrade +150$
wired control +200$
wireless control +500$
additional features (position reading, computer control, dual servo for 3D) +750$
so from 250 to 1850 you could make everybody happy.
For sure , as said previously, these would be at indy level, either for price or quality with a 6 month warranty
If we go into the Zacuto level, just multiply these price by 4, replace plastic with metal, at least with a 2 years warranty
And if we go into the Arri level, multiply by 10 with a lifetime warranty.
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Let me just repeat and expand what I said in other words just to make things more clear. I truly believe that Pete has to reduce his costs in order to reduce his price and sell more quantity. I also believe that he had a big list of people that where willing to buy his product (including myself) that when the final price was announced they didn't ordered. That probably scared him. But this is because we expected something a lot different. Yes I mean a lot cheaper ! Personally I am willing to buy tomorrow morning if the price is 1200$ max. Unfortunately reducing the cost is probably difficult to happen and I have a feeling that this is the reason RedrocKmicro hasn't produce the unit at all. (They shouldn't make fake announcements and create bogus reservation lists but that's another story) Bottom line is that I bought the other day a heavy duty drill press for 300 euros. Ten years ago that would be impossible, I would need at least 1500 euros. China you said ? Probably, but thats the reality of the market today, that's why we expect a cheap remote follow focus solutions from someone to deliver, because it can be done.
best
Andreas
best
Andreas
well it is ok to say what you said, since everybody wants everything for less (if not for free). But it does not really help, since it is the opinion of only one people (some will accept to put more, some want it for less). The product exists and it has its price, and i am afraid it would be hard to change that. The smart move is to go to marketing strategy and make your mind change. After all you do not do that for a car, you just pay the price.
You do not do that for a Pizza, you just pay the price.
If we look at the HoFo's price, compared to others manufacturer, it is still among the cheapest, if not the cheapest. so there is something wrong elsewhere. It is the first claim about the 150 pound ? Is it because the product still has to find its target ?
I think the main problem with such product (product that offer no feature else that doing something that already exist but a different way, i mean focusing) is
to detach the hardware from the feature.
"Hey look man, my electric can opener cost only $25. How can you sell it if the only comparison is the $2 manual can opener from the supermarket ? or if you can find youtube video that shows you to build an atomic can opener for $5 ?"
If you see the value's device as only the sum of it feature or elements, for sure there will be lots of disappointement. Because all the element can be found today for darn cheap.
Probably Swiss watch could be an example. after all some would pay (not me) $8000 a Rolex.
Just to get time ? a $15 japanese one would do the same and if you buy this swiss knife they even give you a free swatch !
But Rolex still sell a lot of $8000 watch, so there is a way. They are selling more than a watch or more than a bunch of gears into a nice box or more than a device that shows time.
I think the Hofo product started wrong, letting build a wrong audience on wrong expectation.
It has now to reposition at a different level in a different world.
I am not even sure DVXUSER forum is the right place to discuss such product, because the bad history.
Probably this product should popup in new forum, like high professional photo or video.
I would clean the net from all this bad stuff (youtube video showing a prototype that cost 150 pounds).
If rolex showed the prototype of their next watch on youtube with comment like the "the new rolex prototype made from a $25 chip, expect to sell soon for $75) , how could they expect then to sell it
for $10.000 ?
It is all about creating the flipping point between "cheap" and "too expensive" and called "affordable".
You do not do that for a Pizza, you just pay the price.
If we look at the HoFo's price, compared to others manufacturer, it is still among the cheapest, if not the cheapest. so there is something wrong elsewhere. It is the first claim about the 150 pound ? Is it because the product still has to find its target ?
I think the main problem with such product (product that offer no feature else that doing something that already exist but a different way, i mean focusing) is
to detach the hardware from the feature.
"Hey look man, my electric can opener cost only $25. How can you sell it if the only comparison is the $2 manual can opener from the supermarket ? or if you can find youtube video that shows you to build an atomic can opener for $5 ?"
If you see the value's device as only the sum of it feature or elements, for sure there will be lots of disappointement. Because all the element can be found today for darn cheap.
Probably Swiss watch could be an example. after all some would pay (not me) $8000 a Rolex.
Just to get time ? a $15 japanese one would do the same and if you buy this swiss knife they even give you a free swatch !
But Rolex still sell a lot of $8000 watch, so there is a way. They are selling more than a watch or more than a bunch of gears into a nice box or more than a device that shows time.
I think the Hofo product started wrong, letting build a wrong audience on wrong expectation.
It has now to reposition at a different level in a different world.
I am not even sure DVXUSER forum is the right place to discuss such product, because the bad history.
Probably this product should popup in new forum, like high professional photo or video.
I would clean the net from all this bad stuff (youtube video showing a prototype that cost 150 pounds).
If rolex showed the prototype of their next watch on youtube with comment like the "the new rolex prototype made from a $25 chip, expect to sell soon for $75) , how could they expect then to sell it
for $10.000 ?
It is all about creating the flipping point between "cheap" and "too expensive" and called "affordable".
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So you agree with me ! Something mast be lost in translation ! I am hoping for less and pushing for less since I was made to believe that will cost less and that the intension was to cost less. I had specific expectations and it seems Pete had also the same but something went wrong in the process. I am helping him a lot by providing him feedback on his decisions since he obviously thinks we on this forum are his target market. The only thing I disagree is if this is the right place to discuss it. Obviously is the only place because here is where it made his first steps. Of course if the majority of the forum as you said pays what is asked for and has no intension to provide feedback, then there is no need for the forum altogether anymore. Pete can advertise in more traditional ways. It was never my intension to bargain as you state at the beginning of your post and don't bother to explain how the opinion off one person does not really help because I will never understand it. Anyhow since I find all this negativity that struggled this thread awfully uncalled for, and heavily disturbing, I honorably and with a bow say goodbye !
best
Andreas
"the intension was to cost less"
that is currently the main problem. An objective look at the market shows the HoFo cost less than any other wireless FF.
The fact that you are disappointed (and many others) is not a proof that the product is wrong. It just shows a mismatch somewhere and we can discuss for ever who has the fault.
My opinion is that the project as set some marks at the begining which are difficult to overcome. If the guy has used a different wording , like affordable instead cheap, positionned the product against existing competitors instead letting believe that assembling cheap part would lead to a cheap device, all
of this would have greatly facilitated its start into the market.
It is too late now, and i doubt that if everybody claims it too expensive , it would change something or else we would all drive a Ferrari.
But, there are strategic option to build on the project that could allow the people left outside to enter the game. I gave some tracks but there could be more.
In the meantime, the prototype gave enough information (another mistake) for an average skilled guy to build his own at very low price (around 300$).
that is currently the main problem. An objective look at the market shows the HoFo cost less than any other wireless FF.
The fact that you are disappointed (and many others) is not a proof that the product is wrong. It just shows a mismatch somewhere and we can discuss for ever who has the fault.
My opinion is that the project as set some marks at the begining which are difficult to overcome. If the guy has used a different wording , like affordable instead cheap, positionned the product against existing competitors instead letting believe that assembling cheap part would lead to a cheap device, all
of this would have greatly facilitated its start into the market.
It is too late now, and i doubt that if everybody claims it too expensive , it would change something or else we would all drive a Ferrari.
But, there are strategic option to build on the project that could allow the people left outside to enter the game. I gave some tracks but there could be more.
In the meantime, the prototype gave enough information (another mistake) for an average skilled guy to build his own at very low price (around 300$).
hoarp001
Veteran
Hi,
Well you are welcome to buy another system? I'm not making you buy mine. I set out to make a more affordable system, and I don't think anyone can say I have not done this. The first system I made was awful, it worked but it was so tacky and unreliable, there is no way I was going to let myself take peoples hard earnt money for it.
What we have ended up is a compramise. It is the most cost effective system out there, it has taken YEARS and thousands of pounds to build this thing up to where it is. Its not like I just pulled a finished hofo out of my arse and stuck it up for sale.
I made the best unit I could, and as cheaply as possible. I am not one to cut corners, and I am not going to produce some cheap tat that fails. The extra features do not really add much to the cost, it costs a pound to add a switch, so suggesting reduced features really won't change much.
Phillip Bloom has a unit and anyone that follows him on Twitter will already know his initial response.
Felix Forrest, a very well known and very well respected Steadicam operator did a reveiw on it, and rated it against his Preston, Chrozial, Genio, and MKv systems.
A professional Steadicam operator bought a unit recently to use on pro football (even though he has a Preston already).
At the end of it all, even people with DSLRs and relativly low cost rigs have still spent a significant ammount on the camera. I don't see why people seem to ignore the focus function. If you have a stabiliser, you NEED a remote focus. If you dont have one, or you have one that fails, then your footage will be blurry. You spend thousands on a camera but then grumble because the most important function is going to cost a bit more to control than you originally thought.
Yes, its 1200 quid and not 150, but, you get what you pay for.
If you want some nasty bit of plastic tat, then by all means, make one. If you want something that has had real thought, and skill put into its production, something that works and will not let you down, then you can go on my shop, and have one in your hands in a few days.
Shame this post has turned into a bit of a flame war, I think I will back out a little bit. Those of you that want to moan can carry on.
Pete.
Well you are welcome to buy another system? I'm not making you buy mine. I set out to make a more affordable system, and I don't think anyone can say I have not done this. The first system I made was awful, it worked but it was so tacky and unreliable, there is no way I was going to let myself take peoples hard earnt money for it.
What we have ended up is a compramise. It is the most cost effective system out there, it has taken YEARS and thousands of pounds to build this thing up to where it is. Its not like I just pulled a finished hofo out of my arse and stuck it up for sale.
I made the best unit I could, and as cheaply as possible. I am not one to cut corners, and I am not going to produce some cheap tat that fails. The extra features do not really add much to the cost, it costs a pound to add a switch, so suggesting reduced features really won't change much.
Phillip Bloom has a unit and anyone that follows him on Twitter will already know his initial response.
Felix Forrest, a very well known and very well respected Steadicam operator did a reveiw on it, and rated it against his Preston, Chrozial, Genio, and MKv systems.
A professional Steadicam operator bought a unit recently to use on pro football (even though he has a Preston already).
At the end of it all, even people with DSLRs and relativly low cost rigs have still spent a significant ammount on the camera. I don't see why people seem to ignore the focus function. If you have a stabiliser, you NEED a remote focus. If you dont have one, or you have one that fails, then your footage will be blurry. You spend thousands on a camera but then grumble because the most important function is going to cost a bit more to control than you originally thought.
Yes, its 1200 quid and not 150, but, you get what you pay for.
If you want some nasty bit of plastic tat, then by all means, make one. If you want something that has had real thought, and skill put into its production, something that works and will not let you down, then you can go on my shop, and have one in your hands in a few days.
Shame this post has turned into a bit of a flame war, I think I will back out a little bit. Those of you that want to moan can carry on.
Pete.
Yeah, from the results I get with my 3 channel RC gear with a cheap follow focus from India, I would say, you can build your own for about 500 us$. To make it look nicer and more appealing to the environment, you have to add another 100/200 bucks to it. To make it work great, just buy the follow focus from say Shoot35(sgblade) and add the RC gear to it.
That will put you at around 800 to 1000 bucks.
If the HoFo will go for around 1000$, I will buy it immediately.
That will put you at around 800 to 1000 bucks.
If the HoFo will go for around 1000$, I will buy it immediately.
I'm a Bartech owner / AC who also runs Preston F/I/Z. The HoFo is a solid contender for people like jib and Steadi operators who need wireless FF capability on a more limited budget.
If you want a manual FF solution, there are literally a dozen systems you can use to satisfy this requirement. Some good ones start at $500. For this, you'll get a single-wheel geared, nearly zero-backlash system.
Futaba and Nikko don't make something off-the-shelf that a working professional is going to be able to satisfactorily modify into a wireless follow focus with his soldering iron, Dewalt screw gun and an assortment of Home Depot-sourced nylon screen door parts.
The $150 - $300 wireless follow focus doesn't exist. Get over it. The good news is that a $1500 one does exist. Not coincidentally, it is a solid option that has a place in the professional's tool kit.
Seriously, it isnt' like HoFo was taking pre-paid orders on a bait-and-switch or vaporware product. Transparency throughout this thread shows why the pricepoint is different and why you're getting so much more.
e
If you want a manual FF solution, there are literally a dozen systems you can use to satisfy this requirement. Some good ones start at $500. For this, you'll get a single-wheel geared, nearly zero-backlash system.
Futaba and Nikko don't make something off-the-shelf that a working professional is going to be able to satisfactorily modify into a wireless follow focus with his soldering iron, Dewalt screw gun and an assortment of Home Depot-sourced nylon screen door parts.
The $150 - $300 wireless follow focus doesn't exist. Get over it. The good news is that a $1500 one does exist. Not coincidentally, it is a solid option that has a place in the professional's tool kit.
Seriously, it isnt' like HoFo was taking pre-paid orders on a bait-and-switch or vaporware product. Transparency throughout this thread shows why the pricepoint is different and why you're getting so much more.
e
emretufekci
Well-known member
i been waiting for this since it start it , if i could aford it i would buy it without thinking twice , im sure its great product and good price compare to others in the market .
im sure a lot of people here are talking non sense , and they know its a good deal , but they been waiting for so long with 600 dolars in there pocket , sudenly its 2000 $ grrrrr , its like a kid waiting in the front of store for 2 months for PS4 with 500 bucks in hes pocket , and when he get to the counter its 1500 $
im 100% sure if u mentioned from the start the hofo will be the range of 1200$ none of this guys would complained
anyway im still saving for the hofo , ill be getting mine sometime soon
hey at least try to give a discount for the people who had resrvation , email us a discount code number or voucher so we can feel special
, dont forget if these guys didnt suport your project and you didnt have no reservation , i think you wouldnt made it this far
good luck and hope to see the hofo soon
im sure a lot of people here are talking non sense , and they know its a good deal , but they been waiting for so long with 600 dolars in there pocket , sudenly its 2000 $ grrrrr , its like a kid waiting in the front of store for 2 months for PS4 with 500 bucks in hes pocket , and when he get to the counter its 1500 $
im 100% sure if u mentioned from the start the hofo will be the range of 1200$ none of this guys would complained
anyway im still saving for the hofo , ill be getting mine sometime soon
hey at least try to give a discount for the people who had resrvation , email us a discount code number or voucher so we can feel special
, dont forget if these guys didnt suport your project and you didnt have no reservation , i think you wouldnt made it this far good luck and hope to see the hofo soon
hoarp001
Veteran
I got an update,
The Hocus Focus is currently being used in the UK for the FA Cup football matches (it was mistakenly broadcast during half time during a match on Saturday) and I have just been told that the operator is taking it to South Africa for the World Cup later this year!
He has a Preston system aswell, but is opting to use the Hocus Focus for the football.
Photos to follow.
Pete.
The Hocus Focus is currently being used in the UK for the FA Cup football matches (it was mistakenly broadcast during half time during a match on Saturday) and I have just been told that the operator is taking it to South Africa for the World Cup later this year!
He has a Preston system aswell, but is opting to use the Hocus Focus for the football.
Photos to follow.
Pete.