Red Scarlet Delayed Again... Price increase up $1000

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Something to remember on this subject: Jannard or RED Team didn't just decide to put this in as part of a continually increasing set of specifications and options. People (i.e., the people on REDUSER) asked for it. And then they made a poll for it. And they listed the reasons they wanted it. And then RED Team weighed the numbers (52% for the change) and the reasoning (better camera v. cheaper camera) and decided to pursue what the majority wanted.

vanvideo said:
I'm not a follower of RED, so...what's HDR?
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Not sure if this is a joke, or not, but I'm assuming not. HDR stands for High-Dynamic-Range. It really means just that. Epic and Scarlet will be capable (at least on paper and test charts) of reproducing very high dynamic range. Up to 18 stops for Epic. No tests have been done with Scarlet yet, so I'm not going to venture a guess there.

Here's an ungraded (hence the flat image) low-res screenshot of an early version of HDRx in action. Nothing is clipped or crushed. Pretty much all the information in the scene is there to be used in post however desired.
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Here are some threads from REDUSER about the HDRx(tm) program:
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=49668
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=50362
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=49940
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=41251


John Caballero said:
By the time they keep adding "features" and needed hardware to make everybody that buys the fixed, or any Scarlet for that matter, an award winning filmmaker it will cost most likely 20 grand. And thats about the time it will really hit the streets.
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Well, people asked for this one. And I think RED and most REDUSERs are very understanding that cameras alone don't make awards. I'm holding the cover to a DVD shot about 3 years ago on an DVX (I would bet) that has 16 awards on the cover.


Otis Grapsas said:
One damage the 3K for 3K has done to the industry is that many people expect unrealistic pricing. Almost all professional camcorders on the market, including Sony, Panasonic, etc are very reasonably priced for what they offer. Any professional knows that, but 3K for 3K lead the less informed into thinking they are overpriced. Then the 1K dSLRs bodies finished the job:)
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Unrealistic pricing. In my opinion, Scarlet is still unrealistically priced. How much does a similarly spec'd camera cost? Its priceless, because there isn't one. (Granted, there isn't a Scarlet yet, either).

I think that an S35 camera that shoots 5K REDRAW with 15+ stops of DR and has interchangeable lenses with simple first-party electronic mounts is an absolute steal at $15K of kit (including a true 720p EVF).

Now, that's not to say that everyone wants or even needs that. This camera won't be better for everyone than anything else because people will have different budgets, people will have different needs, and people will have different opinions.
 
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I was one of those that voted for the addition of HDR on the Scarlet as I feel in the long run this will be a very smart move for Red and ultimately, us the end users.
Who really cares if we have to wait another 6 months for a camera that has so far only been a pipe dream. It's not like anyone is going to loose out on business to others by not having the camera, as nobody else does.
The way I see it, the only people who really have anything to loose with these constant delays is Red, but if by doing this they bring to market a camera that does in reality what the Scarlet is proposed, then this will be the huge success it deserves to be.

I'll agree with the unrealistic pricing. I suspect that the fixed will end up being far higher priced.
I'm hoping that the Cinema and fixed will be a modern and digital equivalent of the Bolex. As the last of these are being sold factory direct at around 6000CHF ( about $5,000 ), if a Scarlet kit comes in at around $ 10,000, it will be bang on the money..to quote Simon Cowell :-)
 
The whole announcement of a delay was such a pointless exercise.

You know why? Because no date had been set !

Similarly if the announcement was "Hey scarlet is now coming early" and everyone threw
up their hands in the air and simultaneously said "yipee" they still could have released it on the
same un-announced date and no one would have been the wiser.

Announcing a delay without a set date is a huge marketing and PR blunder. Some details are better left unsaid.
 
Was anyone actually surprised by that?

I'm sure Panasonic is thrilled now! First to market usually wins big even if it is less feature packed.
 
J Davis said:
The whole announcement of a delay was such a pointless exercise.
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Well, I think it served a point, in that Jim was answering a question that would have no doubt cropped up.

Imagine if he had just posted "We are adding the new boards now and it will cost $1000."

I would bet that at least one of the first five posts would have asked, essentially "How will this impact delivery? Will it take longer now? Much longer, or just a little bit?"

So even though RED seems to be working, more or less, on an "it's done when it's done" basis now, we at least know that this delay isn't going to severely prolong things. At least...not at this stage.

If anything, RED has always been pretty up front with how they are doing. They set goals which they couldn't reach, but when they realized it they told people. And when they announced those goals, they told everyone, numerous times, that 1) the dates will change, 2) the specs will change, and 3) the prices will change before all is said and done. It's definitely not the traditional process, but then again we don't get to directly interface with Panasonic/Sony/Canon CEOs, Engineers, or Software developers during the development. Costs are everywhere, and I think the long wait for Epic and Scarlet is a price that must be paid for the degree of community involvement and evolution the product has seen.
 
stockfuel said:
Can people please stop crediting RED with the evolution of vDSLRs.

The D90 was launched months before the DMSC concept.... in fact the 3K/$3k was scrapped and DMSC was announced after the 5DII was announced. If anything, the vDSLRs inspired RED to completely redraw their roadmap.

vDSLRs were just a natural progression of live view mode and the idea had been flying around for years.

I appluad RED for shaking the high end industry to the core... the progress they are making with Epic/Scarlet is truly ground breaking.

I just laugh every time I hear how they kick started the vDSLR movement. As if Nikon/Canon had any fear about the Red One or proposed 3K/$3k prototype! Even the AF-100 seems more a progression of the vDSLR movement than any worry about Scarlet launching.
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I appreciate your post and even agree with the general idea expressed there. But if you think Canon is not aware of Jim Jannard's moves, it is possible to see you haven't had connection with Canon reps without mention the core circle.

Even 'cause this is simply inaccurate or these banners wouldn't come from them.

an-epic-begins-with-m.jpg


cdlc800.jpg
 
I've been following RED's developments since 07, since before the r1 came out. I'm well aware of how they operate with an up-front-we-tell-you-more-than-you-need-to-know-approach.

I am appreciative of their intense and incredible effort and achievement and someday I may even be a scarlet owner (depending upon how their pricing restructure pans out).

But above and beyond any of that I believe that they are not above criticism or that they are above error.
 
J Davis said:
But above and beyond any of that I believe that they are not above criticism or that they are above error.
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Nor should they be. There are definitely things I wish they will do differently, market differently, name differently, build differently, or price differently.
 
philiplipetz said:
At about $10K for a workable rig, it is not question if the Scarlet is a good value, it probably is, but if it has priced itself out of reach for most of the projected audience attracted by the 3K for $3K promise of the original Scarlet. This is a three fold increase in price. Again, Scarlet is probably a good value, but that ignores the many people who held off on other purchases because of promises that were never met. RED has left the market of low end people who waited for two years, and is delivering good value to a different market. Are the people who saved their money and waited wrong to feel some degree of being misled? Please understand their emotions and do not belittle them because they have been priced out of the RED market. And please stop belittling them because they do not have as much money as do successful working pros.
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Best, most applicable read on this thread. Read it again.
 
robertrogoz said:
if you want to play with big boys, you have to act like big boys (same goes for the web page).
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You miss the point ... RED is different ... RED doesn't have to do anything. RED reserves the right not to deal with anyone with a bad attitude. There's lots of room for lots of Cameras. RED is not focused on playing with the big boys, RED is focused on pushing the envelope. Enjoy the ride, the journey is the reward. Get a RED ONE M-X now and make a movie.
 
vic777 said:
Get a RED ONE M-X now and make a movie.
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If you live in a large city ... let's say Manhattan. Get 20 poor filmmakers ... put up $10,000 each that's $200,000... buy a fully equipped RED ONE M-X plus lights and sound equip. You now have a production company .... you got the equip and you have the bodies to act in and crew a film. PM me if you want to join such a group, (state your financial commitment and your desired city/location). We make Ten Features in three years ... then re-evaluate the situation.
 
vic777 said:
If you live in a large city ... let's say Manhattan. Get 20 poor filmmakers ... put up $10,000 each that's $200,000... buy a fully equipped RED ONE M-X plus lights and sound equip. You now have a production company .... you got the equip and you have the bodies to act in and crew a film. PM me if you want to join such a group, (state your financial commitment and your desired city/location). We make Ten Features in three years ... then re-evaluate the situation.
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I'm waiting for the scarlet.
 
Emanuel said:
Even 'cause this is simply inaccurate or these banners wouldn't come from them.

an-epic-begins-with-m.jpg


cdlc800.jpg
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Ohh, do you mean the fact that they both used the term "Epic".... a well used movie making term.

OR

They both used the words "coming soon" and gave a fairly specific date.

One delivered.
 
HDRx is a great feature. it may make people lazy though. lighting might become quicker because it will be much more difficult to clip. has RED said anything about tone mapping ability for HDRx?
 
I personally find this embarrassing and a little hilarious, and pathetic. For a company to keep promising more and more, then having to backtrack every single time.

Was just talking with a friend about it. When was this camera first alluded to in late 2007, and announced at NAB 2008 - Imagine if they had actually released a 3k at $3k camera in summer of 2008 - the way normal companies do after they announce a product. People would be using such a camera and producing great stuff. And this announcement of Scarlet HDRx would be the next cool thing and we would wait until NAB 2011 to order ours. Yet Red keeps promising more than they can deliver, and the "next" thing seems to never come.

Real companies actually deliver the product they say they will. And yet, Red gets away with not doing so in so many people's eyes.
 
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I understand the current perspectives and all on pricing, etc... partly due to the originally spec'd Scarlet that everyone always refers to, partly due to us being spoiled, I think :)

If we pretend for a moment that there was no RED and no RED One, and x company comes out tomorrow and announces a 16 mm Digital Cinema Camera, shooting 120fps @ 3k RAW, with 16 Stops of Dynamic Range. They say the price will be 17,500 for a basic, shoot ready package (less media)... I suspect the only complaining about price people would be doing would be to wonder if it was for real, and how they could do it when something like an Alexa body (for example) costs 60k dollars. I also suspect it would be as popular as the RED One has become, even at 3x the current price point...

--

When Scarlet does come out, and if it performs to spec, it'll be kind of weird calling something "late" that has as much or more dynamic range than a 60k dollar camera body, etc...

I'm not in the business of buying marketing, or two years of baggage from a camera company building completely new products out in the open... I'm in the market of buying cameras.. when they are on the real market. Old specs, and old release dates, only taint what a camera user should be looking at... which is the finished product (when it arrives), it's price point and if it is or isn't a good fit for xy or z user.
 
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