Red Scarlet Delayed Again... Price increase up $1000

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Jason Ramsey said:
If we pretend for a moment that there was no RED and no RED One, and x company comes out tomorrow and announces a 16 mm Digital Cinema Camera, shooting 120fps @ 3k RAW, with 16 Stops of Dynamic Range. They say the price will be 17,500 for a basic, shoot ready package (less media)... I suspect the only complaining about price people would be doing would be to wonder if it was for real, and how they could do it when something like an Alexa body (for example) costs 60k dollars. I also suspect it would be as popular as the RED One has become, even at 3x the current price point...
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If it happened... the 1st question everyone would ask is "when can I buy one". The company would then reply "not sure, everything is subject to change with us guys.... but it is SO worth the wait".... then everyone would say "sounds good, now what was the Panasonic called again, the AF-100 right?".

I hear so many times this arguement that "well, it is still cheap at 3 times the price". That is true, if it was launched TODAY.

None of us know what is around the corner, therefore that arguement holds very little weight.
 
instead of loading up the scenario (how about you keep it about the camera), let's just say for the sake of argument, that X camera company announces this new 3k machine, shows full working prototypes, and RAW image samples for scrutiny, and says release date will be end of year.

Your apparent frustration seems just as readily applicable to all those carrying around a 2 year old piece of paper with a camera spec list on it that never existed beyond that piece of paper and for more than a few months, as though it would be an applicable benchmark to what is out, coming around the corner, or what is currently spec'd by x company...

While I understand there is still an audience of people waiting for 3k for 3k, obviously the market isn't there yet... So, why use something that never existed as a benchmark for pricing on current or upcoming products? Maybe in a few years, we will have 4k at 4k on 35mm with 250 fps... It's obviously not there yet...
 
I think there would be far more interest in the AF-100, regardless.

What you call "loading up" is me showing the other side of the coin. I was keeping it about the camera company and it's policy. It is releveant to the overall purchase of said camera.
 
But Jason, they have been announcing this camera as being just around the corner for almost three years now. It's shameless the way they keep hyping under "if" and "soon", and people not only apologize for it, they defend it. But there is no "if". You can't say "if" about Scarlet anymore than anything else. Real companies deliver what they say they will. Even the products they have delivered have been delayed and often beta, or even sub beta.

The best thing for Red to have done about this is to have announced NOTHING AT ALL. Just kept silent and kept working. Then when the camera is actually finished (if that ever happens) they can reveal it has this new HDRx feature and a new price. But they don't do this. They just continue the hype. It's just embarrassing. They need to put up or shut up.
 
Michael Olsen said:
Something to remember on this subject: Jannard or RED Team didn't just decide to put this in as part of a continually increasing set of specifications and options.
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Sure they did. According to Jim Jannard, it's the mysterious No. 21 on the Scarlet feature list, even though leaving an essentially blank No. 21 was actually just a mistake originally. He said HDR was planned from the beginning.

People (i.e., the people on REDUSER) asked for it. And then they made a poll for it. And they listed the reasons they wanted it.
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They did so after Jim Jannard suggested it.

And then RED Team weighed the numbers (52% for the change) and the reasoning (better camera v. cheaper camera) and decided to pursue what the majority wanted.
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Majority yes, but hardly a mandate.
 
"I personally find this embarrassing and a little hilarious, and pathetic. For a company to keep promising more and more, then having to backtrack every single time."

They've delivered "more."

You can go out right now and rent an R1MX, and you know, shoot something for the big screen like "The Social Network."

Or pretend to be indignant and superior on a message board...
 
Meh... there are plenty of companies who do exactly what you want, snow... build their cameras behind closed doors, and announce when close to release.

They are also multi-billion dollar companies who have dominated an industry for a long time by rarely releasing something "big", and regularly releasing incremental upgrades, calling it a new camera, and hyping it as "big" with giant advertising campaigns... From the perspective of a "start-up" business looking to gain traction in such a competitive, and well-dominated, well-funded market, you probably wouldn't last a week if you tried to do business like them... The reality is RED, and folks like them trying to compete in this industry can't afford to try to do business like them and expect to have any measure of success or longevity.

Whether people like RED's style or not is all well and good. Lots of options. I don't understand though why, if people dislike the way red markets and keeps a fluid, more open development process, they continue to comment on and follow the news cycle from them. Or, what it has to do with the actual performance of the products that they are actually selling...

all the talk about RED's marketing and development methods makes for interesting philosophical debate, but at the end of the day... what matters to me as a potential consumer of their products is the product(s) that come to market, and how they treat me as an actual paying customer.

RED One and RED One MX have proven quite successful. There were something like 15 RED One MX cameras shooting a 300 million dollar 3d feature. They are now demonstrating upwards of 18 stops on currently working prototype cameras, etc, etc. so they must be doing something right in the arena of actually designing and building cameras (and reaching an audience with them)... and, as a potential consumer, that's what primarily concerns me. Are we buying cameras or marketing strategies? :)
 
polfilmblog said:
Or pretend to be indignant and superior on a message board...
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My, my. Aren't we tough.

We're talking about a business and their advertising practices. If you think that translates into something about me, then so be it.

Jason Ramsey said:
Meh... there are plenty of companies who do exactly what you want, snow... build their cameras behind closed doors, and announce when close to release.
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All I can say Jason is that in all the years I've been involved in this industry in one aspect or another, and the nearly 50 years I have been alive, I have never come across a company who has promised and hyped so much, and backtracked so much on those promises, while at the same time having so many defenders willing to accept it, and even defend it. If I ran my business that way talking about all the great things I was "going to deliver" I'd be laughed out of town.
 
Tzedekh said:
Sure they did. According to Jim Jannard, it's the mysterious No. 21 on the Scarlet feature list, even though leaving an essentially blank No. 21 was actually just a mistake originally. He said HDR was planned from the beginning.

They did so after Jim Jannard suggested it.

Majority yes, but hardly a mandate.
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Nice digging, this does indeed prove HDRx was originally planned to be included in the scarlet- looks like things just changed and they decided to charge an extra $1k for the same product -nothing wrong with that, but weird they just didnt say "were going to have to raise the price- sorry" instead of making it seem like your getting a bonus.
 
snowleopard said:
My, my. Aren't we tough.

All I can say Jason is that in all the years I've been involved in this industry in one aspect or another, and the nearly 50 years I have been alive, I have never come across a company who has promised and hyped so much, and backtracked so much on those promises,
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Haven't noticed Red back tracking on anything. This is a new technology and a new product under development. They and we won't know what the final product is or what it will cost until it is finished to their satisfaction.
The goal Jannard set from the beginning of the company was to produce digital cameras that can equal or beat film in every meaningful way as a practical motion acquisition medium. They are very close to achieving that goal with the new cameras in every respect: resolution, dynamic range, creative aesthetics and flexibility. It's not about meeting a schedule or a market price point. It is about being true to their mission and the camera's ultimate potential.
That is why the disclaimer that specs, prices and delivery dates are subject to change is so prominently displayed in Jim's posts and on their website. Those who somehow think Red has promised them something else should blow this up to poster size and pin it on their wall.

Contrast that with an AF-100, and I'm not knocking the camera or Panasonic, they are doing what they do very well. It will be a really good product at its price point and no doubt quite satisfactory for many in its market segment. But there is no fundamentally new technology in the camera, it is basically a repackaging job using existing technologies with some minor tweaks and updates. Built no doubt to a fairly rigid schedule and cost target driven by their market research department and bean counters.
 
As I see they made huge promises with enormous expectations, and by and large repeatedly delivered excuses and delays. That's what I meant by backtracking.

I've pretty much said all I'm going to say at his point.
 
hunter richards said:
Nice digging, this does indeed prove HDRx was originally planned to be included in the scarlet
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Hardly, I'd say. As was posted, listing No. 21 was acknowledged as a mistake. Then it was "possibly" filled in by HDRx out of convenience back when RED was unsure of whether or not Scarlet could cut it in terms of processing. There was definitely some questioning and vagary there. Turned out, it couldn't.

After further testing and posting screens from Epic, they noted that Scarlet couldn't do HDRx without additional hardware and cost when people kept asking about it. They then left it up to community to decide what they wanted - cheaper camera, or better camera. Community majority voted in favor of better camera. RED decided to follow community majority and make better camera.

Unless, of course, there was some sort of conspiracy which obfuscated the design process to the extent that it would have to later be delayed and costs would go up for...no real benefit to RED? And RED knew people would ask about HDRx on the Scarlet when they posted about it on Epic. And then they knew that more people would vote for it than against it. And they knew they would potentially lose customers because of the decision.

I certainly don't know what happened. I don't think anyone does outside of the inner RED circle. But I'm going to have to think of horses when I hear hoofbeats and go with the simpler non-conspiratorial explanation. People asked for more, and RED obliged at a slightly higher cost. It is beneficial that the Scarlet program no doubt shares design features with EPIC, otherwise it would be a much larger setback.
 
snowleopard said:
As I see they made huge promises with enormous expectations, and by and large repeatedly delivered excuses and delays.
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As part of those promises and expectations, they also said, multiple times, to expect delays and to expect pricing changes and to expect specification changes.

It's not that this is all cool and great with me - I'd much rather be shooting on a Scarlet now than typing this message.

But I do feel it's only fair that people actually take to heart - the good and the bad - of what is written in messages from RED. When, at the bottom of every webpage on RED.com it says:

Specifications, prices and delivery dates are subject to change. Count on it.
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Then I think it's fair to say that everything that has gone on has to have been expected. I don't know how people could be surprised or really upset about it. All three have changed, just as they told us to expect.

This may not be the way Canon, Panasonic, Sony, Arri, etc. work. Closed product development and firm delivery dates are not the way RED works, and that has been known for years now. And if that's what you want, you don't want RED.


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That being said, Scarlet has increased in price a lot and taken a long time to get where it is. But RED isn't making anyone buy it. They aren't forcing people to save every penny they have and not buy something else in the meantime.
 
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philn said:
... he announced the supposed DSLR killer over two years ago.
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Totally not an accurate representation of what happened. Jannard didn't "announce a DSLR killer"; remember that two years ago when the Scarlet was announced, there WAS NO SUCH THING as DSLR video. It didn't exist. The entire DSLR "revolution" sprang into existence and took over the market >after< jannard had announced the Scarlet.

There are many of us who think the original "3K for 3K" Scarlet idea was tossed on the junkpile specifically because of the "DSLR Revolution." The market moved out from under Red, and all those who were likely to be content with a little fixed-lens 2/3" camera all of a sudden found a whole lot of alternatives, for a whole lot less. So ever since then, the Scarlet has been revised upwards (in technology, in features, and in price) in repeated attempts to get back out ahead of the curve. Problem is, the other companies are not standing still.

Arri is hitting them hard on the high end, with the Alexa. Panasonic's taken away their low end with the AF100. And the DSLRs have vacuumed up all the no-budget guys who were among the most rabid Scarlet proponents. And Sony is poised to battle them squarely on the Red One front, with their forthcoming April $19,000 camcorder.

I think what Red has now learned is a pretty stern lesson: "The bigger they are, the harder they punch."

Like the rest of the players he could have stayed silent until he had a actual production schedule. So even if it took 5 years he would not be getting trashed left and right as he is now.
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Agreed. Red is guilty of the classic marketing mistake of "overpromising and under-delivering." And now they're reaping what they've sown.

Best of luck to them, but the time for bragging and swagger is over, and now the only thing they can do... is deliver. I think it was Tuco in "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" who said "When you have to shoot, shoot... don't talk."

I think Red can do something amazing. I just wish they would. I don't want to hear about it anymore. Let me know when it's in red.com/store available for order.
 
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