Red Scarlet Delayed Again... Price increase up $1000

[Max Smith]

I'm in total agreement with you. I believe that Red pushed the Big Boys to create the products that are just being released. The fixed Scarlet will blow away the competition when released. And even though it's taken over two years). The fixed Scarlet is not triple the $3k promise but double because Jannard said repeatedly that the fixed scarlet will include everything except the media for the price. So now it's under $6k well it blows away the Sony EX3 which sell for over $8k. And for $750 more than the AF100 you get 3K Raw with HDR. So obviously Jannard was way off that this would be the DSLR killer because of the $6k price but I have faith the some time in the future he probably will fulfill that promise. And I thank him for kicking the industry in the you know where because I really believe that is the reason that we are seeing excellent products like the AF100 being released at this time.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Red and their products. I've worked on a fair share of film and commercial shoots that use Red cameras, so it's safe to say I'm pro Red and love their innovation. I'm also patient enough not to care when Scarlet comes out. For professional shoots I'm usually dealing with bigger camera packages anyway.

But right now the Scarlet doesn't blow away anyting. It's doesn't exist outside of a lab and you can't shoot anything with it. The film Monsters, which was shot with an EX3, looks great and is coming out in theaters this month. I don't know when it was actually shot but it was probably done at least a year ago.

Again, I not only appreciate what Red has accomlished, but how they've pushed the market as well, but I find it disingenious to bash a camera that is almost two years old now by comparing it to something that does not yet exist.

 

[HHL]

P.s. (believe it or not) I will never ban you for having a differing opinion... only for being an asshole when you express it so, no worries...

Thank you so much for taking time to answer my question. It makes perfect sense. I appreciate your patience. This place is my home. Thanks for creating such a great place for people to learn from one another and share our passion for filmmaking.

 

[HHL]

HHL just come over to Scarletuser, we are nice, and owned by Landmine too

Thanks Zacatac. I just may do that. Thanks for the tip/invite. See you around.

 

[HHL]

And I thank him for kicking the industry in the you know where because I really believe that is the reason that we are seeing excellent products like the AF100 being released at this time.

Hey philn...I hear ya. Nothing like a little "unfriendly competition" to get things moving along huh?

 

[philn]

Again, I not only appreciate what Red has accomlished, but how they've pushed the market as well, but I find it disingenious to bash a camera that is almost two years old now by comparing it to something that does not yet exist.

I apologize if people think I was bashing the Sony Ex3 because I think the Ex3 is an excellent camera. I was just comparing the cost of the Ex3 to the upcoming Scarlet fixed and the difference of the feature set. I never said it was a lousy camera. Just that 3k raw, Hdr and 2/3 sensor for around $2.5K less was going to blow away the competition. Upon reflection I should have compared it to the Sony Ex1 (another excellent camera) because they both have fixed lenses and Ex1 is selling for $6500 to $6700. The main reason I compared the Ex1 was to point out that even though the Scarlet fixed at close to $6k will still be cheaper the both the Ex1 or the Ex3.

 

[philn]

Hey philn...I hear ya. Nothing like a little "unfriendly competition" to get things moving along huh?

Yes I think maybe the biggest mistake that Jannard made was after creating a digital camera that at $17.5k was as good or better the cameras selling for $100k or more he announced the supposed DSLR killer over two years ago. Like the rest of the players he could have stayed silent until he had a actual production schedule. So even if it took 5 years he would not be getting trashed left and right as he is now. But in being open about Scarlet and based on his success of the red cam I really believe that he lit a fire under the rest of the industry and we are starting to bear that excellent fruit.

 

[Michael Olsen]

I think a part of this may have been the fault of RED's evolving target market. Upon the original announcement of "3K for 3K", Scarlet was made to sound as though it would be the camera for everyman. If I recall, I even heard the word "soccer mom" bandied about.

Since then, I believe that RED has taken a course away from the well-funded-parents and the non-professional-but-still-a-major-hobby shooters. Instead, they seem to have become aware of the fact that they could have left a pretty huge gap between the Scarlet models and the Epic models. Now, they seem to be more or less targeting professionals* all around, just of different financial capacities.

*I don't mean to piss people off, so I'm going to define this. Professionals, in this post, are people who make their living using cameras, for whom an extra grand is not of "make it or break it" significance, and who expect to spend money to get equipment which is better than okay. Not all professional camera operators or DPs need or want these cameras, and I'm not suggesting they buy them. There are plenty of other options, and more arrive regularly.

For example, a small production company may not be able to afford ~$45,000 for Epic. But they want more than the original "3K for $3K" offered because 1) They like the idea of a future-oriented 4K finish 2)they want the HDRx(tm) for all its increased DR) and 3) they don't want to be shooting narratives on 2/3" sensors for aesthetic reasons. So, now, they can get something that will shoot 5K for a 4K finish, that has HDRx(tm), and that is an S35 sensor for far less than ~$45,000 (closer to $13,000 - $16,000 depending on kit).

In other words, I feel like RED is poised to release Epic as a camera that is pretty much amongst the pinnacle of current general-purpose digital cinema cameras. It'll shoot 5K, it'll have gobs of DR (18 stops...), it'll use easy CF or SSD storage, it'll shoot compressed RAW, it'll support electronic lenses from Canon and Nikon, it'll be modular, etc.

And RED is poised to release the Scarlet line to sweep up any other professional shooters who may want similar features. It'll shoot 3K-5K depending on the model, it'll still have tons of DR, it'll still have easy storage, it'll still shoot RAW, it'll still support electronic lenses from Canon and Nikon, and it'll still be modular. Except it won't do some things quite as well (e.g., lower framerates, compression).

That pretty much leaves people who aren't professionals out of the picture unless they are buying RED purely as a luxury. Which, to me, is almost what RED is. A luxury brand.

Who knows what we'll see in the future. The current roadmap seems to point towards development of FF35, then 645 and 617 medium format cameras. Or, as it could be put, ultra luxury specialist cameras. But maybe RED will surprise everyone and come out with something at the $5K price point that is somewhat crippled in comparison to their current lineup. Who knows!

--

As I posted on RedUser:

Just for my own gratification...

$1000 = $200 a month for five months (putting the arbitrary day I'd like to purchase the camera as March 1 2011).

That's ~$1.15 dollars a day. Doesn't seem so bad to me now.

 

[Jeremy_Sawatzky]

just finished reading this whole thread, couple of things to say. - to people bashing red about not keeping the 3k for 3k. drop it, its in the past. I have no doubt they could release a camera that shoots 3k for 3 grand. it would be a piece of cake in their books. They decided, to hell with it lets make this tiny camera destroy everything in the market. YES I KNOW ITS NOT RELEASED YET- but neither is the af100. I garranfrickintee the scarlet will give the af100 a ride in the schoolbus when its released. but no doubt by the time it is released, panasonic will have released another camera. but its guna trump that one too. Red is at the end of adding features. epic is shooting and scarlet is right behind. I am going to wait for scarlet to be released BUT in the meantime, i think im guna buy an hvx200 to hold me over.

The difference between red and the 3 big boys is they arent centered around the profit margins. if they were, epic would cost 150 grand and scarlet would be 70 grand. can u imagine if sony or panasonic released a camera in a year with scarlet specs??? it will never happen. They will keep adding one little feature here and there to keep the masses happy and that works for them. its all about the money. - look at apple lol

What im most excited about it is when red finally gets around to releasing epic and scarlet, i dont think arri will sell another alexa. sonys ex3 and successors?? gone.... We are all guna benifit from this hugely. the big three will start a mad race to catch up, Features and specs will soar while prices plummet. u just wait. we are on the brink of a camera war and we are all guna benifit. - but for now il take an hvx200 and wait....

 

[Michael Olsen]

What im most excited about it is when red finally gets around to releasing epic and scarlet, i dont think arri will sell another alexa. sonys ex3 and successors?? gone....

Perhaps in some markets. But I definitely know there are people that are absolutely in love with the Alexa (which does have some features the future REDs won't offer, at least not as announced currenty), and some people which are quite anti-RED. Some overlap, perhaps, too.

 

[Nektonic]

Sure it is a bummer that RED is delaying again, but as others have said, they are partly responsible for for pushing the industry to release products like the AF100. I see it as domino effect. RED pushes things, then we get something like the Nikon D90. The whole video DSLR thing was a surprise hit, but once Canon, and now it seems Nikon too, along with Panasonic figured that the video on a DSLR is for more than just tourists and photojournalists... things changed big time.

RED will release the Scarlet when it is ready. I'm not a fan of their constantly morphing specs and marketing tactics, as I think they should've nailed things down better before making the big announcements, but it is what it is. They went for building buzz, and that strategy can backfire a bit if things get overhyped.

My current thinking is if the AF100 turns out really great, then why not buy that, and in a year or so when the Scarlet models finally hit, sell the AF100 if need be? For those with the money to burn, or with substantial funding from a prodco or studio, then why not just rent or buy a Red One now?

Another thing to consider is that Canon will continue to push their DSLR line's video capabilities. It hasn't been that long since the D90 and non-24p capable 5D mkII hit, and look how far the DSLR's have come. This is the best time in the past 10 years to be shopping for a digital cinema/video camera.

So it is easy to get angry with RED because they maybe talk too much (but they are excited about the cameras they are developing). But it is also hard to be mad at them, because they have done some great things so far.*

* Although, in regards to something like the AF100, Barry Green should be given some credit for bugging Panasonic to make a m4/3 video camera, and of course Nikon and Canon helped kick things into gear with the DSLR craze.

 

[Razz16mm]

Yes I think maybe the biggest mistake that Jannard made was after creating a digital camera that at $17.5k was as good or better the cameras selling for $100k or more he announced the supposed DSLR killer over two years ago. Like the rest of the players he could have stayed silent until he had a actual production schedule. So even if it took 5 years he would not be getting trashed left and right as he is now.

Ah but then there would have been much less input into the development of Scarlet, indeed the entire modular line. To a greater extent than many seem to realize Scarlet is a product of the whole Red community who have endlessly proposed and debated a plethora of features, the best of which have been incorporated into the camera. Some of the development process has also been exploring new technologies and in some cases waiting on the emergence of new supporting technology like SSD's that will be essential to Scarlet's ultimate success.

 

[philn]

My current thinking is if the AF100 turns out really great, then why not buy that, and in a year or so when the Scarlet models finally hit, sell the AF100 if need be?

Thats my plan to buy the AF 100 and make money with it and buy the Scartlet when it's available.

 

[philn]

Ah but then there would have been much less input into the development of Scarlet, indeed the entire modular line. To a greater extent than many seem to realize Scarlet is a product of the whole Red community who have endlessly proposed and debated a plethora of features, the best of which have been incorporated into the camera. Some of the development process has also been exploring new technologies and in some cases waiting on the emergence of new supporting technology like SSD's that will be essential to Scarlet's ultimate success.

I agree with you but by doing so Jannard and Red has put up with so much grief. The same thing happened with the original Red Cam. I believe it was delayed about 2 years and people were doubting he could pull it off. And the original Red was revolutionary so I have no doubts that Jannard will do the same with the Scarlet. And I will not be surprised if down the road he does come out with the DSLR killer.

 

[Jason Adams]

At this point I don't even read the press releases or updates. Every other cam manufacturer is innovating and delivering. They have not made the perfect cam or even a cam that can compete with Scarlet, but I am making money now from P2 and DSLR cams.

Scarlet's superiority is of little solace if it only exits in the minds and mock ups of Team Jannard. If RED thinks they should run back to the drawing board every time another manufacturer drops a working cam on to the market then Scarlet will go down in history as the greatest cam that never was.

Please stop trying to make one camera to rule them all and ship something. We are all waiting to buy this.

 

[Otis Grapsas]

Black and Decker don't sell drills, they sell you a hole in your wall wherever you want, whenever you want.

I'm not buying gear, ultimately I need the image.

That's impressively pragmatic, but it applies to professional tools, tools that are judged by the quality of the hole they make in the wall. I don't think Red are after professionals with the Scarlet, Red One and Epic cover that if Red One hasn't saturated the market already. Scarlet is meant to commercialise the Red brand, that's what the 3K for 3K was about, textbook marketing, expansion. I believe 95% of those interested in the Scarlet cannot even afford it because it is a 10,000 euro setup (without proxy, viewfinder, and other options) or even if it was 5,000 euro.

My idea of a professional:

1) One who wants the product for a specific production, one who wants to use it immediately in his paid work. When talking about digital cinema cameras, that has to be a film shooting a few months from now. If you don't know what the new camera is for, you are not a professional, you are a consumer that "needs" another gadget.

2) One who appreciates the unique properties of the tool and is ready to accept that the product will not do everything. Does the tool do the job at hand? Does it do something important extremely well? If we accept 100fps is a requirement, the large majority of 35mm film cameras on the market would be consumer equipment. But 35mm does motion quality and color extremely well, that's what a professional needs. If you need everything, you are not a professional. That also applies to other features, like shallow DOF. Most professional cameras do not even make the most of 2/3" sensor DOF due to 3CCD limitations by the beam splitting prism and zoom lens aperture limitations, but professionals still buy those.

3) A professional does not really care for an 1,000 euro or a 20% price difference. The cost of shooting professional projects is very high. That's a drop in the bucket. If 1,000 euro break the deal, you are not a professional.

4) A professional compares the tool to other existing solutions, not a dream camera. Other existing solutions are limited in all departments, because they are professional designs that exist in the real world, every feature is a trade off for something else. If you want 100fps, you can't have it in CCD, the best we can do is 2/3" 24fps CCD in an HPX3700. A professional gets the HPX3700. If deviations from the dream camera feature list break the deal, you are not a professional.

5) A professional values dependability and problem free operation in the field. If you are prepared to beta test with your money or settle for something that will waste your production time and resources in order to get more features, you are not a professional.

6) A professional expects professional support. If you are prepared to wait for weeks for getting your camera fixed you are not a professional. If you don't care about getting an engineer on the phone, you are not a professional. If you expect all that for 3K (2,200 euro), you don't even have comon sense, chances are you are not a professional.

 

[vanvideo]

I'm not a follower of RED, so...what's HDR?

 

[NickD]

A little Humor from Reduser.net post...

Thank you for the Scarlet Delays... Seriously, BUT you forgot 3D this year!
Scarlet Humor...

What is the next year's new & improved version of HDRx™? ... HDRy (pronounced HDR-Why?)

What happens when you bring a Scarlet to an EPIC shoot of models covered in honey? ... B Cam (pronounced BEE-Cam)

What is the current shipping dimensions and weight of the Scarlet? ... 0 x 0 x 0 ", 0.001 lbs (after all, human thought does have mass)

What is the forgotten Feature 21? ... The ship date...

But Seriously folks... In a backwords way, Red is actually helping potential non-Red customers get better cameras by promising better cameras and NOT releasing them every year... keeps the competition on their toes...

Please keep adding new great features like HDRx™, SSD, 4K, X-Ray vision, Retinal scan, 1000000 ISO and 3D into the base package Scarlet spec sheet every 6 months, and NEVER release the cameras, so we can get better deals on other gear! However, it's better if they try to drop the estimated Scarlet price every time, so the competition would react and deliver us 1080p Raw camera phones for under $1k next year- I'll order two... Amen.




It really has become a RAW deal for the other 50% who don't need HDRx™™, but you get what you pay for today- in this case, the best currently shipping non-Red alternative or a one week Red MX Rental...

Hey, we might as well joke / laugh about the situation... after all, the Scarlet alternative is comparing "who has less moire for more money" this year...

Last edited by Nick D; Today at 11:46 PM. Reason: forgot the punchline...

 

[Otis Grapsas]

I think Red wanted to get consumers interested with 3K model, then wait until they become professionals, then release it as a professional model at a professional price Miele do make toy ovens for girls, that look exactly like the real thing. You have to get them while they're young. I hope I'm not giving Jim Jannard any ideas.

But in general business, when you are promised a wonderful product at an impossibly low price and the store uses whatever method to get you interested in a "similar" or "new" or "improved" or "higher-end" model that costs 2x or 10x, it's called a bait and switch scheme. It's a good thing the 3K for 3K thing stopped early, but there are still people that are surprised when they discover the true cost of a configured Scarlet system, so the promised affordability lingers on.

One damage the 3K for 3K has done to the industry is that many people expect unrealistic pricing. Almost all professional camcorders on the market, including Sony, Panasonic, etc are very reasonably priced for what they offer. Any professional knows that, but 3K for 3K lead the less informed into thinking they are overpriced. Then the 1K dSLRs bodies finished the job

 

[John Caballero]

By the time they keep adding "features" and needed hardware to make everybody that buys the fixed, or any Scarlet for that matter, an award winning filmmaker it will cost most likely 20 grand. And thats about the time it will really hit the streets.

 

[Jay Birch]

Can people please stop crediting RED with the evolution of vDSLRs.

The D90 was launched months before the DMSC concept.... in fact the 3K/$3k was scrapped and DMSC was announced after the 5DII was announced. If anything, the vDSLRs inspired RED to completely redraw their roadmap.

vDSLRs were just a natural progression of live view mode and the idea had been flying around for years.

I appluad RED for shaking the high end industry to the core... the progress they are making with Epic/Scarlet is truly ground breaking.

I just laugh every time I hear how they kick started the vDSLR movement. As if Nikon/Canon had any fear about the Red One or proposed 3K/$3k prototype! Even the AF-100 seems more a progression of the vDSLR movement than any worry about Scarlet launching.