Dafilman21
Carbonite Member
To the previous poster http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=52652 and http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=52649. I'm just saying......
RED Renames Scarlet - Now "Epic Light"
- Thread starter LuckyStudio 13
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ImpossibleBishop
Member
Yeah, I get it, big directors are getting the epics to shoot on. But not the people that have been clamoring for it for all these years.
Once again, call me when they deliver to anyone besides Jackson. He's custom making them for gods sake. You and I both know that whenever they actually deliver, and have to mass-produce them the QC is going to be VERY different.
Once again, call me when they deliver to anyone besides Jackson. He's custom making them for gods sake. You and I both know that whenever they actually deliver, and have to mass-produce them the QC is going to be VERY different.
PerroneFord
Deals in Lead
What, like the thousands of RED One's out there shooting every day? Yea, I hear they are all falling apart....
...whatever
Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
I think all of Red's problems lay with their new cameras. RedOne has worked out relatively all its bugs a long time ago. I know what you are saying, but RedOne is now just as reliable as any other high end cinema camera as far as 'problems' are concerned. I can go through an entire RedOne workflow from shoot>edit>export on my RedOneMX and MacBookPro. Nothing to really work around here.
My only complaint is getting repairs or new pieces of equipment when things break. Everything is on backorder at red all the time. It's easier to hit up ebay or find someone selling their gear than buying new.
PerroneFord
Deals in Lead
Look at the words you just used...
RED, Digital Cinema, Ebay....
How many F35, D21, SI2K, Genesis parts are you going to find on ebay?
RED has it's issues, but there are a lot of benefits as well. I sometimes wonder if Jim is taken aback by the success they've had. As you say, backorder is the name of the game, and I just wonder if the problem is that they grossly underestimated demand. Clearly, Jim has an understanding of manufacturing, and capacity estimation. Anyone who's done what he has done, must understand the principles. I can just imagine advisors telling Jim that they may sell 500 cameras and that he shouldn't tool up beyond that. I mean, look at the entire market for digital cinema cameras before RED in terms of numbers, and look now. That world has completely changed.
RED, Digital Cinema, Ebay....
How many F35, D21, SI2K, Genesis parts are you going to find on ebay?
RED has it's issues, but there are a lot of benefits as well. I sometimes wonder if Jim is taken aback by the success they've had. As you say, backorder is the name of the game, and I just wonder if the problem is that they grossly underestimated demand. Clearly, Jim has an understanding of manufacturing, and capacity estimation. Anyone who's done what he has done, must understand the principles. I can just imagine advisors telling Jim that they may sell 500 cameras and that he shouldn't tool up beyond that. I mean, look at the entire market for digital cinema cameras before RED in terms of numbers, and look now. That world has completely changed.
Pietro Impagliazzo
Well-known member
RED generates hate in the same amount it generates fanboyness.
Zacatac
Well-known member
Every response is a congratulations along with a huge relief, since the camera is actually going to be shipping sometime.. RED has made it feel like anyone follow progress, along for the ride, thats their sick disturbing marketing, they've made people care about the products, so when you see a "Great Job guys, I'm proud" you'll understand where they're coming from.
Most of the old scarlet fanboys died out, understanding the camera will come, when the camera comes, never expect more than that.
Oh sorry, I forgot my opinion doesn't matter because I was labeled a Fanboy by some RED hater on dvx.
BobbyMurcerFan
Well-known member
If Red didn't acutally have the best price/performance high-end camera out there for a few years, I'd be more inclined to be upset with all this. But the Red One handily competes against cameras four times its cost, so the fanyboys' worship is mostly static that should be ignored, IMHO.
Nik Manning
Well-known member
Well said.
combatentropy
Veteran
Many of you are talking past each other because you resort to hyperbole to make a point. I like hyperbole. It's a good way to gain attention and get across the main feeling of your argument. It also can be funny. I especially got a kick out of post 180. But it's best used as an opening, like I said, to get attention. You can't carry on a logical argument using only hyperbole. You're taking a nuanced, gray area and turning it into black or white. And so you are deadlocked with the person who decided to simplify it into the opposite color. If you would just talk accurately about it, you might agree with each other.
The truth is, Red is, well, gray.
Red is not a fountain of perfect cameras flowing down to the masses.
Neither is it a paper-mache advertising firm that never delivers.
I would say these things are true about Red:
(1) Red did affect the course of camera manufacturing by introducing a Super-35 video camera for less than $100,000.
(2) Many movies have been made with Red cameras --- and many have been successful, either artistically, commercially, or both.
(3) Waiting for Red can be painful.
Now I will say one more thing about Red but qualify that it is my opinion:
* I think Red makes products that are too complicated. Red struggles with delays because the innards are too complicated, too many features. I humbly suggest Red adopt the sensibility of Ikonoskop (Ikonoskop also took two years. But Red has more money) and read Getting Real by 37 signals.*
* I should qualify my post lest someone think I'm a complete moron. Getting Real is about making software. Cameras are hardware. Some of the things in the book do not apply --- or the reverse applies. But if you read the entire book from start to finish (it's not long), you will get a feel for the overall belief, and I'm sure you creative people can apply it.
The truth is, Red is, well, gray.
Red is not a fountain of perfect cameras flowing down to the masses.
Neither is it a paper-mache advertising firm that never delivers.
I would say these things are true about Red:
(1) Red did affect the course of camera manufacturing by introducing a Super-35 video camera for less than $100,000.
(2) Many movies have been made with Red cameras --- and many have been successful, either artistically, commercially, or both.
(3) Waiting for Red can be painful.
Now I will say one more thing about Red but qualify that it is my opinion:
* I think Red makes products that are too complicated. Red struggles with delays because the innards are too complicated, too many features. I humbly suggest Red adopt the sensibility of Ikonoskop (Ikonoskop also took two years. But Red has more money) and read Getting Real by 37 signals.*
* I should qualify my post lest someone think I'm a complete moron. Getting Real is about making software. Cameras are hardware. Some of the things in the book do not apply --- or the reverse applies. But if you read the entire book from start to finish (it's not long), you will get a feel for the overall belief, and I'm sure you creative people can apply it.
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MDKfilms
Well-known member
I could not agree more with Tomas. If I had the kind of money that would buy me a full RED, BLUE, SCARLET, PURPLE DRAGON or whatever other colour there is out there, I would probably go out and find a hell of a deal on a Super16 kit like an Aaton or an ARRI SRII or III and shoot film! Film is film no matter what gauge. Super16 filmout to a DI and i've got everything I need. Oh I know, BUT THAT COST MONEY! Yeah it do, but now with all the problems involved in shooting a digital feature I think you would find it easier now to shoot on film. With film you have all that latitude to work with. I know, BUT WE NEED TO SEE IT NOW! The ADHD generation. If you were going to shoot a feature laden with VFX, then maybe it makes sense to shoot that digitaly. But if you are shootin a drama go for the film, you wont regret it. Now I have to get back to my digital world and work with my new PURPLE DRAGON 10k RAW S LOG camera, works great!!!
The camera is a small part of the equation. It really is just a light tight box, to quote M.Libatique. What is really important are the lenses and or film stock.
What RED has done is now to be taken seriously you will need this kit with these AKS for shooting FF or you will need this kit with these AKS for shooting DOC, PSAs etc. A clear line between pro and amateur which has always been there. There is this peception that some day some one will mass market a camera that can do everything for 50 bucks. It's never going to happen. Use what you have and create the next great epic, no pun intended.
Creativity starts with the written word, not pixel count not RAW versus Compressed not CMOS versus CCD not blah blah blah.
I know, but as a cinematographer its my job to know these things, well knowing these things is handy but it won't make a bad script better!!!
The camera is a small part of the equation. It really is just a light tight box, to quote M.Libatique. What is really important are the lenses and or film stock.
What RED has done is now to be taken seriously you will need this kit with these AKS for shooting FF or you will need this kit with these AKS for shooting DOC, PSAs etc. A clear line between pro and amateur which has always been there. There is this peception that some day some one will mass market a camera that can do everything for 50 bucks. It's never going to happen. Use what you have and create the next great epic, no pun intended.
Creativity starts with the written word, not pixel count not RAW versus Compressed not CMOS versus CCD not blah blah blah.
I know, but as a cinematographer its my job to know these things, well knowing these things is handy but it won't make a bad script better!!!
Dafilman21
Carbonite Member
Yea sometimes the worship of all things RED does get a little out of hand. And part of me understands that a lot of Reduser's are excited because they believe in RED either because they own one or because it will be the holy grail for them. Or so they hope I am not a fanboy for anything or anyone..unless they pay me and even then I will give it to them straight. I do however appreciate RED for what it has done for the industry and for what it is going to do the same with Panasonic and Sony. I just get a little annoyed when the RED naysayers act just as foolish as the "fanboys" Unless Jim is paying you you don't have to defend his practices to the death. And unless RED has done something to you personally that ruined your life don't worry about when there camera is shipping or take shots at a man whether you like it or not is working hard to be good at what he does.
Most Red announcements occur around midnight PST over a weekend at some point. Jim has mentioned that both Scarlet 2/3" models and both Epic models have been locked for production. Hardware and basic feature sets are completed. So maybe there is a chance we will see something this weekend.
Hey...what camera is this? http://blog.movies.yahoo.com/blog/262-new-transformers-trailer-rewrites-moon-landing-history
Hmm.....looks like Transformers 3 is being shot (in this scene) by the F3's big brother. Why posting here? No flame...just a little reminder that other tech is still out there and doing just fine thanks. Sometimes the fanboys for Red remind me of Apple fanboys...."Oh Geez...nothing else on the PLANET is as incredible as my APPLE xxx". Get over yourself....there is plenty of other tech out there....and they do just fine without you Red/Apple. Whether or not this movie sucks will have nothing to do with the camera they shoot on.
No flame...No bad blood...just sayin. Cheers!
Hmm.....looks like Transformers 3 is being shot (in this scene) by the F3's big brother. Why posting here? No flame...just a little reminder that other tech is still out there and doing just fine thanks. Sometimes the fanboys for Red remind me of Apple fanboys...."Oh Geez...nothing else on the PLANET is as incredible as my APPLE xxx". Get over yourself....there is plenty of other tech out there....and they do just fine without you Red/Apple. Whether or not this movie sucks will have nothing to do with the camera they shoot on.
No flame...No bad blood...just sayin. Cheers!
S. Matthews
Well-known member
I'm fairly certain most red users and fans do not feel that way, it is wonderful to have choices and other camera's, the thing is the point you just made has nothing to do with this thread but seems like an attempt to start a flame war(if not I apologize I know you said no flame no bad blood but that means nothing after characterizing red users in that way it was an insult no matter what you say at the end...get ready I might have done the same without realizing oh the hypocrisy).
I have tried before to have a normal discussion about this but this site has proved it is not capable of it (maybe get rid of the red section and red posts all together as it does not help the environment of this website). I enjoy this site and I love learning from some of the very talented people on here. but the constant jabs and attacks on red (without any reprimands for the most part from mods or other users) really gets to me. Even the Nikon Canon wars don't get as childish and insulting, why does everything have to boil down to sides and then those sides resorting to ad hominem rather than having a helpful discussion where both sides actually consider the other sides points rather than just ignoring them and spouting off in some other direction.
As I have said many times before all camera companies create products and compete, we reap the benefits, but not if you buy into the marketing hype and stick with just one company or group or camera type. You might find that funny coming from a person defending red and who you may think is a red fanboy, you'd say well you're waiting for the red cam's and you have bought into their hype, yes and no, I have bought multiple camera's over the past few years, I never held off a project or my schedule in anticipation of getting a red camera, that is foolish. I used to get caught up in the red "hype" but then I realized what they are doing is very challenging and the owner is very excited and optimistic about it all so he will tell us things early that might change, he's going to mess up, he's going to expect it early, after a while you get a much more laid back view of it all and just sit back and watch Jim (or mr jannard if you would like, though he seems to have no problem with people calling him by his first name from what I can tell) and jarreds posts, you will avoid the pointless posts and the fanboys, of which I would say there is very little, yes there are a few very outspoken red fanboys(it's not like there isn't af fanboys and gh1 fanboys and gh2, 550d, 7d, 5dmk2, d700, d3s, ex3, jvc...) but even red members take their posts with a grain of salt, just like here there are some biased posters who I ignore and others who are just outright rude and immature (red has those too).
I don't know I'm just very fascinated at the reactions people get over these issues, really if we can't learn to tolerate PC vs mac, or Nikon vs Canon, Red vs the world, how can we expect to overcome some of the real problems in this world. come on people there are much worse things in the world to worry about other than red.
it's funny though I am a fan of Red that's not the reason why I do this, I do this because I am a fan of sanity and truth, you don't like red don't talk about them and then hey guess what you aren't advertising for them anymore, but I can't tell people what to do or when to grow up so all I can do is hope that some people listen.
thing is we all benefit from new technology, the more cameras that process differently do things differently, have different sizes and shapes the better, I welcome all new camera's as they have markets, and I never know what project I might get this early on in my career so who knows what cameras I may require over the next few years, and the ability to have a vast selection of new digital cameras at my local rental place is a very exciting prospect.
to a future of less restricted artists whose only restraint is their own imagination
have a good one keep on dreaming and shooting...(for the moon because if you miss you will end up amongst the stars... lame I know)
P.S. no bad blood not really directed at the posters above (except for the first little bit and I hope I did not offend) more just some things I have wanted to say for a while here and on other sites, look I hate communication through forums, so if you would like to have a discussion about this or even pick my brain as to why I am such a nut bar PM and I would be willing to have a phone conversation or even meet up if you live anywhere near Toronto (i live in downtown Toronto) I would love to meet up with fellow filmmakers and chat about all the new tech and hype these day's, though I could understand if no one takes me up on this offer.
happy holidays and play nice
I have tried before to have a normal discussion about this but this site has proved it is not capable of it (maybe get rid of the red section and red posts all together as it does not help the environment of this website). I enjoy this site and I love learning from some of the very talented people on here. but the constant jabs and attacks on red (without any reprimands for the most part from mods or other users) really gets to me. Even the Nikon Canon wars don't get as childish and insulting, why does everything have to boil down to sides and then those sides resorting to ad hominem rather than having a helpful discussion where both sides actually consider the other sides points rather than just ignoring them and spouting off in some other direction.
As I have said many times before all camera companies create products and compete, we reap the benefits, but not if you buy into the marketing hype and stick with just one company or group or camera type. You might find that funny coming from a person defending red and who you may think is a red fanboy, you'd say well you're waiting for the red cam's and you have bought into their hype, yes and no, I have bought multiple camera's over the past few years, I never held off a project or my schedule in anticipation of getting a red camera, that is foolish. I used to get caught up in the red "hype" but then I realized what they are doing is very challenging and the owner is very excited and optimistic about it all so he will tell us things early that might change, he's going to mess up, he's going to expect it early, after a while you get a much more laid back view of it all and just sit back and watch Jim (or mr jannard if you would like, though he seems to have no problem with people calling him by his first name from what I can tell) and jarreds posts, you will avoid the pointless posts and the fanboys, of which I would say there is very little, yes there are a few very outspoken red fanboys(it's not like there isn't af fanboys and gh1 fanboys and gh2, 550d, 7d, 5dmk2, d700, d3s, ex3, jvc...) but even red members take their posts with a grain of salt, just like here there are some biased posters who I ignore and others who are just outright rude and immature (red has those too).
I don't know I'm just very fascinated at the reactions people get over these issues, really if we can't learn to tolerate PC vs mac, or Nikon vs Canon, Red vs the world, how can we expect to overcome some of the real problems in this world. come on people there are much worse things in the world to worry about other than red.
it's funny though I am a fan of Red that's not the reason why I do this, I do this because I am a fan of sanity and truth, you don't like red don't talk about them and then hey guess what you aren't advertising for them anymore, but I can't tell people what to do or when to grow up so all I can do is hope that some people listen.
thing is we all benefit from new technology, the more cameras that process differently do things differently, have different sizes and shapes the better, I welcome all new camera's as they have markets, and I never know what project I might get this early on in my career so who knows what cameras I may require over the next few years, and the ability to have a vast selection of new digital cameras at my local rental place is a very exciting prospect.
to a future of less restricted artists whose only restraint is their own imagination
have a good one keep on dreaming and shooting...(for the moon because if you miss you will end up amongst the stars... lame I know)
P.S. no bad blood not really directed at the posters above (except for the first little bit and I hope I did not offend) more just some things I have wanted to say for a while here and on other sites, look I hate communication through forums, so if you would like to have a discussion about this or even pick my brain as to why I am such a nut bar PM and I would be willing to have a phone conversation or even meet up if you live anywhere near Toronto (i live in downtown Toronto) I would love to meet up with fellow filmmakers and chat about all the new tech and hype these day's, though I could understand if no one takes me up on this offer.
happy holidays and play nice
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