FS7: Red Raven and FS7

". . . the epic has meatier color". . . Nice description. I've been trying to find words to describe the difference, image-wise, between Sony and some of the other cameras (Canon, Epic, Alexa, etc.) The best I've come up with is Sony looks like painting with water colors, and the others more like painting with acrylic. Film looks most like painting with oil.
 
gene_can_sing said:
I think that if it can do 120fps without cropping, Red will have a winner.
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it's not just cropping.....if raven can shoot 4K 24fps at 5:1...that's great.....but what kind of compression are we looking at for 120fps? the data rate is listed as TBD and that does not sound good....it means that they are trying to crank the compression up high enough to keep the data rate low enough to still get 120fps though the pipeline, get by with using a cheaper processor and not completely gut their existing epic and scarlet lines.....
i am not sure what would be worse: 2K (cropped on dragon) at 120fps at (let's say) 10:1 or 4K 120fps on raven at 30:1....either is just not pretty and definitely not a reason to get (you and your bank account) into RED
 
Mertzwiller said:
". . . the epic has meatier color". . . Nice description. I've been trying to find words to describe the difference, image-wise, between Sony and some of the other cameras (Canon, Epic, Alexa, etc.) The best I've come up with is Sony looks like painting with water colors, and the others more like painting with acrylic. Film looks most like painting with oil.
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it's just the higher bit rate of the red raw files.....it really helps when the shot was a little messed up/over/under.....but a lot of people don't like RED color at all...especially skin tones....i never had any issues...
 
gene_can_sing said:
you can get an FS7 (which with LC709a has just as nice, baked in look as Canon)
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Keep dreaming gene :)

gene_can_sing said:
I had the FS700 + 7Q and it's the same as the FS7 + 7Q
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External image quality of the fs700 is without a doubt superior to the fs7's. At least for the time being.

Raven is likely to trump the board in image quality, no secret there. The form factor is also another benefit in my opinion(gimbal, aerial, handheld friendly). I can hear ENG guys vomiting at the mere thought of this but I personally make a healthy living with the camera tucked into my mid section and love shooting like that. The new accessories they designed for the weapon body are also intuitive and other manufacturers should be taking notes.

RED's are generally "slow" cameras though. They require a bit more thought and skill to get good results from, and are not ideal for a lot of people. If they are in the right hands though, the image quality is vastly superior to any kind of compressed codec workflow(yes including 10bit log).
 
So Gene, about $10-12k ready to shoot? That's not bad so long as it doesn't have some high compression that can't be set lower if desired.

4K/5K @ 60p is plenty for me if it will at least do that.
 
starcentral said:
So Gene, about $10-12k ready to shoot? That's not bad so long as it doesn't have some high compression that can't be set lower if desired.

4K/5K @ 60p is plenty for me if it will at least do that.
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4k 24p @5:1 confirmed. Goes all the way up to 120fps, no idea on the compression scale at those speeds though.
 
IMHO it's based on the image, what's the real image look like. How much range is there really. What's the level of compression on the RAW.

I have 4K at 120fps RAW now. So what would make me move would be a quantifiably improved image and i'm happy to move, been looking for ages.

Since the FS700 i haven't seen a substantially improved image anywhere really (at that market value), the laws of physics come into play and each sensor is a small variation on the same tech.

The FS700 is compressed RAW packed in an uncompressed container, applying slimRAW losslessly compresses that by about half. It's a workflow personally i can deal with.

The other side is that the cost of red accessories are quite high, and i don't know whether this will kickstart a whole 3rd party accessory market, i don't know if that's even possible with red.

There's the Ursa mini, at 4.6k it offers a bit more cropping potential and claims of DR are up there too.

I'm looking forward to seeing the actual images from these things!

cheers
Paul
 
Osslund said:
With something as good and complete as the FS7 RED have to do better to compete.
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I think the word "complete" is a big one for the FS7 - except for media and lenses you're ready to go with the camera as it ships - no extras to buy or to bolt on / cable up. It's an amazing package at that price and a big reason why it's been such a huge success - it just couldn't fail to be.
Steve
 
Paul schefz said:
ibut what kind of compression are we looking at for 120fps? the data rate is listed as TBD and that does not sound good....it means that they are trying to crank the compression up high enough to keep the data rate low enough to still get 120fps though the pipeline, get by with using a cheaper processor and not completely gut their existing epic and scarlet lines.....
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I'm not sure but I'd guess that it's not so much a cheap processor that would limit things as physical size=cooling capabilities? After all the Ursa will do 120fps 4k RAW or RAW 3:1 and it's £3,000.
Steve
 
TMHiggins said:
Canon seems to be getting more and more irrelevant in the game -
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I just dont see that. Raw - meh! 444 2k codec in the new canon with AF is actually the most sensible practical awesome usable combo.

===

This Raven

I dont really see where it fits?

If you have time to dink with ND and heavy codecs why not a BMC of some nature

If you need something agile.. FS7

S
 
Dragon sensor and 4k at 120fps and redcode 5:1 compression is exponentially better than anything out there in that price range. In the hands of someone who understands how to work with Red and R3ds this will yield incredible results.

I love my FS7, but in terms of image quality it falls behind my old Scarlet-X with MX sensor. This is a different level altogether.

Now there's plenty of resons to still shoot with other cameras and for many the audio capabilities and form factor of the FS7 or C300 et all will be more deciding factors but you're absolutely crazy if you can't see a place for a Dragon sensor Red several thousands of dollars cheaper than the C300 Mk2
 
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morgan_moore said:
I just dont see that. Raw - meh! 444 2k codec in the new canon with AF is actually the most sensible practical awesome usable combo.

S
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444 2k is a great codec - you're right (especially with most deliveries being 2k right now anyways), but keep in mind that comes in at double the price of the FS7. They both do 4k internally at the same specs, but you can have one for 8k and one for 16k. I'm not knocking on it as much as I'm saying Canon's pricing is not nearly competitive enough to sway potential buyers (in that under 10k market) from the FS7 or Ursa for that matter. IMO. But hey, maybe that's not the market they're going for.
 
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Liam Hall said:
Certainly, it will fit on drones and handheld gimbals.
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Is it smaller/lighter than a scarlet? does it need a brick batt?.. not a cheap gimbal cam.

Sure.. on a big set where the Acam is Epic then it would come in to play for loads of stuff.

This thread is about this cam in FS7 world - thats where Im not sure I see it hanging out.



S
 
I think if you need a camera for commercials or films, this camera will be the best bang for the price. I shot with the Epic Dragon and loved the tones and color from the sensor. I really think it might have the edge up on the FS7 in that regards. It is all personal taste though and knowing what I know now, I am sure I can get equal results with the FS7’s 4K options with a bit of love.


If you are a one man band, like I am most of the time, and shoot a variety of things like events, documentaries, commercials, and independent films - the FS7 would be a much better choice. I really don’t see the Raven being geared towards the 1080p filmmaker who still does faster, run and gun situations and needs something that can be rigged up and easy to handle for hours on end. It is geared towards the independent filmmaker or commercial studio who has a few crew members that can work towards controlling the situation as best as possible and can help rig up the Raven.


Like Gene mentioned, having both cameras could be really exciting… but to be honest, I would rather sell my FS7, grab a FS5 and buy a Raven. You could have two cameras and pick as needed. Use the FS5 for strictly 1080p event work - lighter camera than the FS7, easy to rig up… Grab the Raven for all of my higher paid commercials and independent films.


If this camera could do up to 4K 60fps at a decent compression ratio, I think they will have a winner. Especially if it has the Dragon’s tones and color built in as well.
 
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