RED Mini-Mags Exposed, or just Business As Usual?

Mitch Gross said:
I choose to believe factual history based on repeated empirical evidence, thanks. Just because you don't know the details doesn't make it not true. I have no idea what testing RED did or didn't do and I know nothing of their design and development process. I can't speak for them and don't try. But I sure have seen this from other avenues.
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Whereas people will give Panasonic the benefit of the doubt as the used to do with Red I think it has got to a point where Red need to back up their claims.
I think it was the accusations Red made at Jinni but on the face of it Red are no better that has caused the loss of confidence..
Red will have to show it does extensive and exhaustive testing in order to restore confidence.
 
RED should have their executives stop talking to the press and hire a PR/damage control expert who is an intellectual property lawyer who understands their product, to talk to the press or at least coach
the execs on how to publicly respond. Maybe they've already done that with counsel but it doesn't seem as if they have. RED is the new textbook case of what happens when you make
press statements that damage brand faith and public perception of your core profit center product.
 
Red sold itself as a outlier of quality affordable cameras for the masses. Jinni is showing that may not be true. Unless they go full transparency and back off its patent trolling a PR firm isn't going to make any dent in repairing the damage they've done to themselves.just read some posts on RedUser by people that actually own that monitor. They’re not happy at the price they paid for a monitor with a green cast that they can’t calibrate . Who’s gonna buy their accessories at those prices and not think twice now?
 
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I was hoping the third video went so far as to buy the upgraded display panel, and install it. They kind of hinted at another company that does upgrade or sell compatible displays that are much better and probably cheaper.
 
Red did two things for the industry - brought down prices from astronomical ($250,000 for F 35 takes the air out of the "overpricing" debate) and brought down the weight of pro cameras to the point that ARRI had to come out with its Mini line. As a package, Red was still a top buy until very recent and Monstro still may be. Its users could live with the overpriced accessories but had a hard time when these overpriced accessories failed to perform.

Now, going into the IBC'19, there's an expected deluge of cameras that will aim for the main source of Red's revenues, its 5K/6K models. The onslaught has already began with a Pocket6K and, while few Red users are expected to switch from their Epic Dragons to BMD - at least, not openly - it ought to make new customers think long and hard about buying into the Red ecosystem. Then you add Sony and Canon into the mix and Red could see some real hard times ahead.
 
DLD said:
Red did two things for the industry - brought down prices from astronomical ($250,000 for F 35 takes the air out of the "overpricing" debate) and brought down the weight of pro cameras to the point that ARRI had to come out with its Mini line. As a package, Red was still a top buy until very recent and Monstro still may be. Its users could live with the overpriced accessories but had a hard time when these overpriced accessories failed to perform.

Now, going into the IBC'19, there's an expected deluge of cameras that will aim for the main source of Red's revenues, its 5K/6K models. The onslaught has already began with a Pocket6K and, while few Red users are expected to switch from their Epic Dragons to BMD - at least, not openly - it ought to make new customers think long and hard about buying into the Red ecosystem. Then you add Sony and Canon into the mix and Red could see some real hard times ahead.
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There are rumors of an FS7 MKIII-type camera coming from Sony and a C500 MKII coming from Canon, it'll be interesting to see if those actually happen. If they do, either or both will be 6K or 8K, I doubt if we'll see many more 4K digital cinema cameras coming down the pike, which is, in itself, insane. But manufacturers will make what they think buyers will buy and apparently, buyers won't buy non 6K or 8K digital cinema cameras, judging from what's come and will be coming. 2019 is already going down in the books as a crazy year in our industry for the things that didn't happen as well as the things that did. First the annoucement of a 6K mirrorless camera for $4k. Then, a digital cinema camera (sort of) that does 6K for $2,500.00. On top of those, a year essentially bereft of any other new digital cinema camera models announced. The melt down of an industry player, RED that still seems to be a car crash in slow motion. It's been a VERY strange year.

In the grand scheme of things, how many users actually NEED 6K? or 8K? I bet the number is eye openingly small. So that means for the majority of high end 6K or 8K users, they are fulfilling a want, rather than a need. For products that are to fulfill wants, that means a large portion of those are status symbol buyers. They buy a camera like a RED because they can, they have the money (wow, 2019 and cameras are still one of the worst, most rapidly deflating assets you can put money into) and they like the industry cachet that owning a RED system gives (or used to give you?), Nothing to do with performance or capability, a lot of do with ego and image. At least RED, for being an aspirational image brand actually delivers a pretty nice picture and is used by talented A-list filmmakers. I'm really curious where RED will be at IBC 2020. I hadn't even heard about the display issue and I don't really follow RED that closely because I don't own one and only very occasionally rent them. But wow, one more sort of controversy for a company already buried in controversy.
 
puredrifting said:
I doubt if we'll see many more 4K digital cinema cameras coming down the pike,
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True. Funny, but Alexa will be releasing a 4K s35 sensor, possibly in 2020.


Personally, i think 4K is a good compromise. HD left too much jaggy edges on fine lines. 4K allows fine details to render more smoothly, and text rasterizes so mich more smoothly to the eye. Whether the lens used has to be sharp enough is irrelevant. As for me, 4K is less about sharpness, and more about smoothness.

8K is interesting, and it looks great on a big screen. Very organic, but is a lot of data, for not a lot of extra effect. But is definiely nice for a premium.

I used to argue about 4K being better than 2K, but now it doesn’t matter. Going into 2020, there really is no point arguing anymore, it has almost flipped, and people go with 4K to a fault now. The resolution wars are so misunderstood.
 
James0b57 said:
True. Funny, but Alexa will be releasing a 4K s35 sensor, possibly in 2020.
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I'll be very surprised if Arri's new S35mm is only 4k (at least at the sensor level). I think we'll see a 5.7k-6kish sensor that downsamples to a 'true' 4k in Prores4444 (just like their 2.8k Alev III did for 2k).

No one else is doing that (for reasons I can't understand).
 
Grug said:
I'll be very surprised if Arri's new S35mm is only 4k (at least at the sensor level). I think we'll see a 5.7k-6kish sensor that downsamples to a 'true' 4k in Prores4444 (just like their 2.8k Alev III did for 2k).

No one else is doing that (for reasons I can't understand).
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Ah, i see, i tend to think in output resolution. Weird, i know.
 
Red will probably reply by lowering prices on its 6K/8K Weapon series cameras and releasing a cheaper/more stripped down version of Monstro in the $30,000-$40,000 range. It also would help them to make a major statement by revising their accessory line with the higher grade SSD's and screens just as a response to the customers outcry.

Sony's new camera just might encroach into the high end pto territory. If Liam is correct on the FX-9 name, the implication is that it is not quite the Cine Alta F but not FS either, sitting somewhere in between. (in the $12,000-$15,000 range?) Then C500 MKII, that was promised to be "priced below $20,000", will be below $20,000 ... by a dollar. Regardless, both will be hitting Red right where it hurts.
 
DLD said:
Red .......
It also would help them to make a major statement by revising their accessory line with the higher grade SSD's and screens just as a response to the customers outcry.
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The problem is that Jinni could do the same and still maintain a huge price differential.
Come to that any other enterprising outfit could start making Red compatible accessories at a far lower cost than Red If Red is only using low end standard components.

RED could offer to swap out al the old cheap SSD for new better spec ones?


As for the value of cameras.... We have some Panasonic AC90's and their 2nd hand value, several years after the model was discontinued, appears to be not far off what we paid for them new.....
 
jwalk said:
One review "Stop with the extreme white privilege skater boy mentality. Some of you are 40" Exactly how i imagine this company is ran. A bunch of Fred Durst clones chugging rockstar energy drinks all day.
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Haha. I find the company persona not very attractive. If other camera companies were offering significantly better options, then i’d probably be more upset, but Red continues to rock the boat and is another option in the small camera world. Better than iCanikony having all the fun.


As Chinese brands gain prominance, none of this debate will matter though. They can shoot raw all they want. And for those that want cheap media, you’ll get that too. Heck, buy a plane ticket to China, and get a Mavo LF for almost half the international price.

Cameras in a box like Red and Black magic are rather pointless with Chinese companies entering the fray. So are US patents.

I don’t particularly care one way or another if Apple wins or loses.
 
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jamedia.uk said:
The problem is that Jinni could do the same and still maintain a huge price differential.
Come to that any other enterprising outfit could start making Red compatible accessories at a far lower cost than Red If Red is only using low end standard components.

RED could offer to swap out al the old cheap SSD for new better spec ones?


As for the value of cameras.... We have some Panasonic AC90's and their 2nd hand value, several years after the model was discontinued, appears to be not far off what we paid for them new.....
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RED has defensible design patents on their electronic pin interface and module designs. Those were more innovative than REDCODE.
 
philiplipetz said:
RED has defensible design patents on their electronic pin interface and module designs. Those were more innovative than REDCODE.
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But that plays into the bad PR narrative - "you buy from us and at the price we tell you!".

Meanwhile BMD has a USB port for your 4K/6K enjoyment.

Side note - Tom Antos did a UMP 4.6K, Alexa Mini, BMD6K, Red Raven shootout. He kept the camera identities secret, then held a public vote on what footage was more pleasing. And that's how the fan voting came out.

Edit - OffHollywood used to make quite a few Red approved accessories. Its co-founder Mark L Pedersen used to post quite often on the old NoFilmSchool forums. I recall having a few humorous exchanges with him around 2013. They were bought out by Vitec but reopened as Creative Solutions in Brooklyn.
 
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DLD said:
But that plays into the bad PR narrative - "you buy from us and at the price we tell you!".

Meanwhile BMD has a USB port for your 4K/6K enjoyment.

Side note - Tom Antos did a UMP 4.6K, Alexa Mini, BMD6K, Red Raven shootout. He kept the camera identities secret, then held a public vote on what footage was more pleasing. And that's how the fan voting came out.
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BLack Magic has a bad attitude. When at a show, one guy suggested a ergonomic alteration, and was told “they get what i give them”. The BmD peops are no angels, just a cheaper version of the same thing.
 
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philiplipetz said:
RED has defensible design patents on their electronic pin interface and module designs. Those were more innovative than REDCODE.
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Defensible where?
Due to the way the US PTO has worked over the years a lot of them are only defensible in the USA

I seem to recall Apple won a case against Samsung in the US but lost it everywhere else.
Also didn't Zoom(?) clash with some one in the US over a patent on a recorder/transmitter? Now they sell the item everywhere except the US. Savy users inthe US order the Non-US version online from abroad.
 
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