RED Komodo to start limited shipping soon for $6k
- Thread starter ahalpert
- Start date
AndreeOnline
Veteran
I don't recall having said anything at all in relation to "cheap" cameras actually.
I don't know if this helps, but I bought the P6K with the exact same reasoning that I bought the 1Dc.
G
Guest
Guest
Oh, just kidding around with you. Hoping we can still laugh at eachother sometimes, and have some fun. Now that we can’t complain about cameras and living in a pandemic, might as well have a lighter mood.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
ADs need $10,000 watches. DPs need $10,000 cameras. A DP with a $10,000 watch and a $1,000 camera should become an AD.
G
Guest
Guest
What i love about DLD. I have never been able to shake them. They always roll with the punches and the laughs. Incredible confidence and sense of humour. Credit to humanity.
G
Guest
Guest
Yeah, they’re whole life is watching thousands of dollars fly by every hour, so it also works as a good metaphor for that.
AD’s need something to relieve all that stress. One of my AD buddies said that 1stAD’s have a life expectancy of 55yo. Gawd luv ‘em. An AD may or may not be the difference between a good movie and a movie, but they can definitely be the difference between a movie and no movie. Many blessings on them and their people(or dogs, cats, fish, turtle, etc)
G
Guest
Guest
Andree seems like a good sport to me, too
Agreed
But no one has been as gorgeously bullet proof as DLD.
G
Guest
Guest
notice he has no watch on.
I’ll take the Lenny Kravitz Leica.
I’ll take the Lenny Kravitz Leica.
John Brawley
Well-known member
No ?
I was speaking as someone that like you, was a skeptic.
Once you've spent some time shooting on one, you feel different. I sure do. I would rather not be paying the money I give them. But it's hard to argue with the end results.
Yeah. They make some silly cameras. We call those "dentist leicas." There's a certain buyer of Leica cameras that aren't photographers. They're collectors.
I'm not precious about my leicas. I haven't kept the boxes. I get them scratched. Dentist buyers are all about collectibility of a luxury item, and Leica cater specifically to that market by making limited editions as well as the actual regular vanilla versions for users of their cameras.
I've tried many times to justify the price. There really isn't any way you can using specs or rational logic.
But I go by end results. There's a difference when I spend a day on set with Leica M and whatever else (Fuji / sony / Olympus)
AND, I say that even as an Olympus Visionary.
I see people putting Leica M lenses on Sony's. Doesn't really translate. I've tried Leica M on my MFT cameras. Doesn't translate either.
There's something unique about the process of shooting with an M. The PEOPLE you're shooting react differently. Some say it's because the VF on a rangefinder is off to the side, so you're not covering your face with a giant camera, most of your face is open (if you're a right eye user)
Some say it's because the Leica VF has look around (just like an Alexa !)
Some say it's because there's no image blackout at the very precise moment you take the photo. And you in theory are making eye contact, possibly with both eyes with the subject.
You can find many of the worlds most iconic images are shot with Leica (whatever the voracity of the Tank image, which in memory was live video ?)
That's why I'm saying in a holistic way, it's the process that it forces on you, not the camera itself. It's like the equivalent of "slow food" for photography.
For those into mechanical watches, maybe you'd like these inexpensive items...
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/leica-watch-l1-l2-introducing
Personally, I love a mechanical watch but I'm more a BALL or Zenith guy....
(most of my IG is Leica, with smatterings of XPAN and Olympus)
JB
Last edited:
ahalpert
Major Contributor
But the benefits you mention affect shooting performance - either through the viewfinder or through the camera's effect on your subject. When we talk of fancy watches, the concern is more how it makes the wearer FEEL, and not how the watch behaves.
I'm not really a Leica-skeptic. But I think we're talking about 2 different things in this thread:
1. Rangefinder-shooting and Leica optics, which affect performance. I wager that the rangefinder design and having a small camera/lens system is responsible for all the benefits you mention.
2. Lifestyle branding and having a tool (be it a watch or a camera) whose design we enjoy and value above its function.
I haven't used Leica cameras. I see the merit of the shooting style and design. I like their lens quality (fine detail with soft edges) and have some old M and R lenses. Your IG shots look great and I love the out-of-focus quality and the slight circular swirl in the backgrounds.
I think they make quality sensors and hardware as well.
The actual beautification of a professional tool for the sake of pleasing the craftsman doesn't appeal much to me. But I'm not a very fashionable person.
And as far as the price - that's the real issue. You are paying for luxury/design and also for exclusivity and status symbol.
I'm not saying performance benefits for intimate shooting aren't there. It just seems unrelated to the price of the camera, the elegant design of the body, and certainly the faux python skin on the Lenny Kravitz collectible.
For $28k, a cameraman's money could be better invested in other tools. But if one has $28k that they wouldn't miss to invest in a collectible, then I don't see the harm.
John Brawley
Well-known member
Maybe. Plenty of other rangefinders out there though.....
And yet there's whole forum topics about covering up the branding on leica cameras.
https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/269147-elegant-tape-solution-for-covering-red-dot-on-silver-m/
One of the most popular a la carte versions of a leica to order is a version with no branding.
Not to be too brutal, it's hard to talk about them unless you've used one. As in tried shooting on one for a week. A Leica M3 can be had with a 50mm for about 1K if you want to give it a go.
It's valid, but I think the beautification and status symbol came AFTER they had decades of refining a brilliantly designed camera. Let's not forget they popularised full frame
In the early 20th century, it was considered too small a format to be taken seriously and it was really Leica that showed it could be used to get "professional" results, and certainly made it a lot more portable than other cameras of the day (much larger medium format cameras).SLR's only came much later.
Yeah. As I said, you can't logically justify the price. But then again, I don't regret any of the money I've spent on my status symbols over the years. I also could likely sell them all with out much loss, especially the lenses. They really don't change much from retail over many years. No other camera gear I have hold it's value as well. Some of the lenses I was an earlier order on, are worth MORE second hand because they have a long waiting list.
Yes you're right. it's illogical and unjustified.
As I said, that's really a collectors item, designed to be valued by it's scarcity. It's not worth 28K obviously, unless you want to collect that particular version.
They make all sorts of custom versions. They made 300 of these ASC versions.https://leicacamerausa.com/leica-m1...XYuYxYrMvkvE0sq7iyA8Q8zQ4qi5oIERoCi7IQAvD_BwE
Now that's the exact same camera as the Kravitz version. Slightly different custom firmware for cinema frame lines.
If you're an ASC member and like shooting Leica, then what a lovely camera to have.
I wouldn't buy one. But the same "stock" items would cost you about 15K. For a M10-P, 35mm summicron, EVF and the PL adaptor.
So for about 2-3K more you get an ASC version, which has unique finishes and unique firmware of which they only make 300 to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the ASC. Notice it's all black, no Leica branding ?
They do this for all sorts of different groups.
It's like the way RED (to bring it back on topic) make a Xenomorph version for Fincher or the DXL...
JB
Last edited:
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to win a Leica SL2 in a raffle. If I were putting my money down, I'd better put it in a Komodo (or something else, maybe just an A7SIII to complement my FS7).
If we're talking 20th century - Cartier-Bresson...I mean, you won't find a better/faster image composer with sharper documentary instincts.
I don't know Leica's full history, but I assume that they evolved from a photojournalistic brand into a high-end luxury brand.
I think their stuff is (mostly) great, but there's a heavy focus on aesthetic design. Even in the anti-branding thread you linked to, everyone is discussing the most "elegant" way of covering the red dot.
The problem with maintaining their resale value is you'll have to use them gingerly, if at all. I bet every scratch you get knocks a few points off the value. I like having a camera I can mistreat and not worry about.
But yeah, I like Leica. But they're priced and designed as a luxury good. And I don't think they're in widespread professional use today (I could be wrong), in spite of the advantages in shooting style.
But ultimately, I might as well try to argue why chocolate ice cream tastes the best. It absolutely does. But not to everyone.
If we're talking 20th century - Cartier-Bresson...I mean, you won't find a better/faster image composer with sharper documentary instincts.
I don't know Leica's full history, but I assume that they evolved from a photojournalistic brand into a high-end luxury brand.
I think their stuff is (mostly) great, but there's a heavy focus on aesthetic design. Even in the anti-branding thread you linked to, everyone is discussing the most "elegant" way of covering the red dot.
The problem with maintaining their resale value is you'll have to use them gingerly, if at all. I bet every scratch you get knocks a few points off the value. I like having a camera I can mistreat and not worry about.
But yeah, I like Leica. But they're priced and designed as a luxury good. And I don't think they're in widespread professional use today (I could be wrong), in spite of the advantages in shooting style.
But ultimately, I might as well try to argue why chocolate ice cream tastes the best. It absolutely does. But not to everyone.
Differences in firmware and color science can produce significantly different aesthetic qualities in the images for something like a Leica, even when the guts are Sony. My personal favorites of the Leica M digital series are the M8 and M9 which used a Kodak CCD sensor with their patented color filters, same as my Bolex. What you give up compared to the M10 on versions is no video capabilities and significantly lower sensitivity and ISO range. But the color and texture of the images those produce are quite unique and the usable ISO range is no different than the negative stocks one would typically shoot in their film counterparts.
John Brawley
Well-known member
It’s really a topic for another thread.
Quick ones. Leica M and Leica SL are totally different beasts. The Leica M 10 is basically the same camera functionally as the M3 introduced in 1954. The WAY you use the camera hasn’t really changed in decades. To get a battery out or SD card out of a digital Leica you take the bottom cover off. Just like the film versions. If you look at them they’re basically the same when you look at the front, the back, the top. Unless you look at the back you probably can’t tell which are digital and which are film versions. In more than 60 years it’s not really changed operationally. I can’t think of any other camera that has that kind of longevity.
From the M10 they took out video. They took it out as a feature. A Leica M is about simplicity. (no af, no auto exposure)
I have the M8 and an M-E (basically an M9) as well as an S006 (medium format Kodak CCD) and they do have something special but they’re also pretty crappy above ISO 800 and it has CCD dynamic range....in other words very poor. The M10 is not just a bit better, but substantially better in low light and dynamic range. It’s what I prefer most of the time.
And errr most DPs I know personally usually sport a Leica. (Re professional use )
And if you do want to buy a Leica, what ever you do, don’t go to a Leica boutique store. The staff are usually clueless and are very much aimed at the dentists.
Quick ones. Leica M and Leica SL are totally different beasts. The Leica M 10 is basically the same camera functionally as the M3 introduced in 1954. The WAY you use the camera hasn’t really changed in decades. To get a battery out or SD card out of a digital Leica you take the bottom cover off. Just like the film versions. If you look at them they’re basically the same when you look at the front, the back, the top. Unless you look at the back you probably can’t tell which are digital and which are film versions. In more than 60 years it’s not really changed operationally. I can’t think of any other camera that has that kind of longevity.
From the M10 they took out video. They took it out as a feature. A Leica M is about simplicity. (no af, no auto exposure)
I have the M8 and an M-E (basically an M9) as well as an S006 (medium format Kodak CCD) and they do have something special but they’re also pretty crappy above ISO 800 and it has CCD dynamic range....in other words very poor. The M10 is not just a bit better, but substantially better in low light and dynamic range. It’s what I prefer most of the time.
And errr most DPs I know personally usually sport a Leica. (Re professional use )
And if you do want to buy a Leica, what ever you do, don’t go to a Leica boutique store. The staff are usually clueless and are very much aimed at the dentists.
Last edited:
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Copy that - but are they shooting paid jobs with the Leica or is it their personal camera? I've met a lot of photographers, but none who used Leica as their primary camera even if they had one for personal use.
To be honest, I only brought up Leica as an example of a company who charges a high premium and emphasizes product design. Vis a vis fancy watches. So they're a bit like Apple in that way. And that's not to say that Apple or Leica make bad products.
But of course there are people who will tell you that you can get much more bang for your buck with a PC. But when I needed a new laptop recently I bought an MBP because I think they're very reliable and integrate well with FCPX, which is also very reliable. I didn't buy it for the look.
Coming back to RED Komodo - I don't give a damn about the color of the camera (though black is ideal for reflections). I don't care for the skulls they put on or the RED logos. I only care about how it handles and how the footage looks.
I'm very anti-marketing and branding because I don't like being manipulated. Some people don't mind, and even see a value in having their imagination and self-regard impacted by the mystique of the object.
When it comes to Leica, I separate the solid design aspects and functions from the decorative touches and luxury pricing/marketing.
Re:tank man, there is the famous video. But newspapers printed the photos that were taken by 5 different people.
"The most-used photograph of the event was taken by Jeff Widener of the Associated Press, from a sixth-floor balcony of the Beijing Hotel, about one-half mile (800 m) away from the scene. The image was taken using a Nikon FE2 camera through a Nikkor 400mm 5.6 ED-IF lens and TC-301 teleconverter.[24]"