RED Komodo to start limited shipping soon for $6k

[ahalpert]

Maybe I'm gullible (ok, I know sometimes I am) but there's an interesting bit on Red User (hope it's ok to say that) about the benefits of global shutter. I still won't decide on my next camera, probably between the C300/3 and Komodo, until I can use both and compare handling, images, etc but GS does seem to be a step in the right direction.

GS is definitely better if it can deliver the same or adequate dynamic range. No one will tell you that a rolling shutter is better under any circumstance.

That being said, you can already tell if your rolling shutter speeds are causing you trouble. There are certain issues they can't handle (muzzle flashes, strobes, etc) but in general I'm fine with a fast rolling shutter. I forget what the measured speed of the readout on my GH5 is (15ms?) but I remember I only had a problem with it once, for a music video during a whip pan with buildings in the background. But even then, I was probably the only one who noticed.

FWIW, I think the C300mk3 will be a big moneymaker in corporate/doc, and pair great with an R5. I'm pondering if I stick with my FS7 and buy the upcoming Sony mirrorless or if I get the R5 and sell the FS7 and get a C300MK3.

 

[ahalpert]

James, over the last few days and discussions, I think we have gotten a good grip on where we both stand on the current situation. I get where you're coming from in your urgency to push for better gear. But I can't help feeling that you're slamming the lid down pretty hard on what essentially is a momentary window of relative happiness where many of us feel we can get stuff done without blaming gear or external factors for not reaching our vision.

Maybe you and James are both right but you have irreconcilable temperaments?

10 years ago, people were putting Letus adapters on their EX3s just to get selective focus. Now we're debating if 13 stops DR and 12 bits LOG is enough. In $2k S35 cameras. Hurray!

We don't want the manufacturers to rest on their laurels. But I think the best way to impact them is to vote with your dollars. That's why I bought so many GH cameras and the S1. I had half a mind to buy the Z6, the Pocket 4K, and now the Komodo to reward those efforts. But I can't buy them all.

 

[AndreeOnline]

But I think the best way to impact them is to vote with your dollars.

But buying them all isn't really voting though!?

That sounds more like supporting any development. =D

But I actually do agree with you. The reason I bought the P6K actually isn't that it's a good camera for me now, but rather that I would like to see the next effort from BMD.

 

[AndreeOnline]

I think one of the worst traps we can fall into is to get tribal over the brand we use.

Certainly.

But there is also a huge difference between raving about your own stuff, drinking all the koolaid you can find, telling everyone about it... and "explaining" to others all they ways they are wrong because they don't feel the way you do.

Imagine extreme segregation between camps: RED, ARRI, Sony, Canon, Panasonic, BMD.... but everyone just vented how good their system was, not how bad the others were. That wouldn't be so bad?

 

[ahalpert]

But buying them all isn't really voting though!?

That sounds more like supporting any development. =D

Well, I've avoided buying any Sony mirrorless cameras because of their crappy color, low bit-depth and slow readout. Yes, they're making developments, just not the developments I want.

All the cameras I mentioned offer RAW recording for like $2-6k. I would like to shoot everything RAW. Just like photographers have been doing for years and years. If they're all released at once, I would vote for either the best IQ in that price range or the cheapest one with adequate IQ. Becoming a tough call.

In some ways, the C300MK3 is the only one size fits all camera since it offers good AF, raw, ND, 4k 120fps, can be stripped down to fit on a Ronin-s. Just a higher price point than the aforementioned.

 

[ahalpert]

Imagine extreme segregation between camps: RED, ARRI, Sony, Canon, Panasonic, BMD.... but everyone just vented how good their system was, not how bad the others were. That wouldn't be so bad?

I think trashing other systems is integral to favoring your own. It's a comparative assessment to begin with.

Also, I think that brand loyalists are annoying even when they're staying positive. And there's no sense in being loyal to a corporation, both from a moral and a business standpoint.

And we should all be aware of the warts of our own gear, even as we marvel at what it can do for us.

 

[AndreeOnline]

I think trashing other systems is integral to favoring your own.

This I whole heartedly disagree with.

The comparison part—sure. But I have zero problems with sorting everything I don't like or enjoy into "not for me". I generally don't waste energy on that.

 

[Razz16mm]

Gave it some punch. This R3D is very unresponsive for me in FCP X. Some settings didn't work, wouldn't change. Tried some older files from the Raven and they worked perfectly, so smooth. The 2nd and 3rd image look similar, but some colors on the chart completely changed.

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The redcode from komodo is different than DSMC2. Only the latest SDK supports it officially. The latest version of RCX still has some bugs too. Resolve 16.2.2 supports it. Have it installed, but haven’t tried it yet.

Definitely going to need a beefier computer.

Like the punchy grades, especially the last one. But that to me is the point of working with a deep raw codec. So much more room to push things around without breaking the image. It is a blank painter’s canvas.

 

[ahalpert]

This I whole heartedly disagree with.

The comparison part—sure. But I have zero problems with sorting everything I don't like or enjoy into "not for me". I generally don't waste energy on that.

That sounds like a healthy mentality. Maybe I'm wrong about trashing other systems, but I find that brand loyalists often do (and worse, they trash the adherents of other systems). I think that it's part of justifying their own decisions.

I will gladly trash Sony, especially since they're a behemoth of a company. I love my Panasonics but they don't have my favorite color science, the AF in video is poor, still no RAW internal. Blackmagic cameras are really cool but I'm still a little spooked by quality control issues I've heard about, plus they lack some features and they have a poor reputation among my clients. That last one is my biggest concern - if my FS7-demanding clients were equally interested in the UMP G2, I would so much rather use that camera.

It's good to be clear-eyed, no? Even if you can say that RED (for example) works really well for your needs, why do you have to become a RED loyalist?

 

[Razz16mm]

Pretty much every video camera I have owned or used since the 1980’s has been a global shutter camera, Sonys or Canon GL series 3 CCD’s up to my current Bolex.

Rolling shutter CMOS cameras became popular with the move to larger format single sensor cameras because large high resolution CCD’S that could work at motion frame rates are difficult to develop and extremely expensive to build cameras around. Think Sony F35.

The Kodak sensor package in my Bolex cost more by itself than the entire manufacturing cost of its contemporary competitor, the BMPCC, in the box ready for sale.

I never bought into the large format DSLR for video movement because I find the aesthetic issues with rolling shutter artifacts intolerable.

 

[Mitch Gross]

So true.

The high-end watch community (horology) is a great comparison to ours, especially because it is vastly larger. Many people consider a watch to be a utility item, simply a reference device for telling time. Others look on them as objects of beauty and fashion. And others still are all about the technical precision and craftsmanship behind these devices. Yes there can be a qualitative difference between a $100 timepiece and a $5,000 timepiece, but it would be pretty tough to claim one is 50x "better". There's utility then fashion and then there's passion. I can appreciate the craft and quality behind a Breitling but for my personal sensibilities I'd be hard-pressed to invest in something more expensive than a decent Seiko or equivalent. I don't deride those who will spend $10K on a timepiece or frankly those who will only pay $20 for a Timex. I place my value for such an item where I personally choose. Plenty of people have dropped watches altogether and just use their phones for the time. Whatevs.

 

[ahalpert]

I never bought into the large format DSLR for video movement because I find the aesthetic issues with rolling shutter artifacts intolerable.

Billions of people have been tolerating Alexa/RED/Venice/Varicam rolling shutter artifacts

 

[Razz16mm]

Billions of people have been tolerating Alexa/RED/Venice/Varicam rolling shutter artifacts

They have much faster and better rolling shutters than what one finds in DSLR’s these days. As maximum frame rates go up, the rolling shutters get much closer to the performance of a global shutter. Sony’s fastest are in the sub millisecond range. A frame becomes a composite of multiple rolling shutter scans.

 

[ahalpert]

They have much faster and better rolling shutters than what one finds in DSLR’s these days. As maximum frame rates go up, the rolling shutters get much closer to the performance of a global shutter. Sony’s fastest are in the sub millisecond range. A frame becomes a composite of multiple rolling shutter scans.

I know, I'm just messing with you because you sounded a bit like a global shutter absolutist.

Personally, I find 30ms RS intolerable. 25ms is borderline. Anything 20ms (or ideally 15ms) and below i feel pretty good about.

 

[NorBro]

The redcode from komodo is different than DSMC2. Only the latest SDK supports it officially. The latest version of RCX still has some bugs too. Resolve 16.2.2 supports it. Have it installed, but haven’t tried it yet.

Definitely going to need a beefier computer.

Like the punchy grades, especially the last one. But that to me is the point of working with a deep raw codec. So much more room to push things around without breaking the image. It is a blank painter’s canvas.

Thank you for that note. I was wondering what was going on! FCP X was able to import it but only half the settings worked...until they stopped working.

 

[Run&Gun]

The high-end watch community (horology) is a great comparison to ours, especially because it is vastly larger. Many people consider a watch to be a utility item, simply a reference device for telling time. Others look on them as objects of beauty and fashion. And others still are all about the technical precision and craftsmanship behind these devices. Yes there can be a qualitative difference between a $100 timepiece and a $5,000 timepiece, but it would be pretty tough to claim one is 50x "better". There's utility then fashion and then there's passion. I can appreciate the craft and quality behind a Breitling but for my personal sensibilities I'd be hard-pressed to invest in something more expensive than a decent Seiko or equivalent. I don't deride those who will spend $10K on a timepiece or frankly those who will only pay $20 for a Timex. I place my value for such an item where I personally choose. Plenty of people have dropped watches altogether and just use their phones for the time. Whatevs.

There’s also the even deeper interconnection for those of us that wear self-winding mechanical watches.

 

[Run&Gun]

Billions of people have been tolerating Alexa/RED/Venice/Varicam rolling shutter artifacts

Only the latest generation Vari’s(35, LT, Pure). ; )

 

[Razz16mm]

Thank you for that note. I was wondering what was going on! FCP X was able to import it but only half the settings worked...until they stopped working.

Some get frustrated with Red’s long, slow, and public beta cycles. But these early pre-release cameras and software are pushed out to select shooters and third parties so the necessary support equipment, software, and workflow are pretty well debugged and ready for prime time when the camera is released.

 

[ahalpert]

Some get frustrated with Red’s long, slow, and public beta cycles. But these early pre-release cameras and software are pushed out to select shooters and third parties so the necessary support equipment, software, and workflow are pretty well debugged and ready for prime time when the camera is released.

Supposedly Premiere just got Komodo support today

 

[Razz16mm]

I know, I'm just messing with you because you sounded a bit like a global shutter absolutist.

Personally, I find 30ms RS intolerable. 25ms is borderline. Anything 20ms (or ideally 15ms) and below i feel pretty good about.

View attachment 139340

Yup, I am a global shutter absolutist.

If you think about it a 30fps frame is about 33ms long. Five rolling shutter scans during a frame interval is a lot better than one.