Doc Holliday
Member
One day soon we will be distressing video to make it look like 35mm. Perhaps that will satisfy the purists.
RED 258
RED 258
RED changing cinema
- Thread starter tonacidigital
- Start date
Graeme_Nattress
Red Team
But HD is soft, and low resolution compared to 35mm film. That's why "sharpness", "Detail" and "aperture correction" is added to boost the edge contrast to make it look more detailed. It needs it because it's low resolution.
Film is also soft, but it has so much more resolution, that you don't need to enhance the image in such a way to produce a "sharp" image. That's why it's harder to do good makeup for HD than it is for film. That's why diffusion is so much more important on HD than film.
RED is different - shoot raw and there's no processing. If you do add any sharpness, the right time to do so is right at the end of the production chain, and you add just enough of the right kind of sharpness for the target output device. That's it. No more, but preferably less. Digital photographers know this lesson. That's why RED is as forgiving as film. We didn't spend hours and hours on the makeup on the girls for the shots you've seen. Hell, even I look ok on 4k, and that's got to say something good
Graeme
Film is also soft, but it has so much more resolution, that you don't need to enhance the image in such a way to produce a "sharp" image. That's why it's harder to do good makeup for HD than it is for film. That's why diffusion is so much more important on HD than film.
RED is different - shoot raw and there's no processing. If you do add any sharpness, the right time to do so is right at the end of the production chain, and you add just enough of the right kind of sharpness for the target output device. That's it. No more, but preferably less. Digital photographers know this lesson. That's why RED is as forgiving as film. We didn't spend hours and hours on the makeup on the girls for the shots you've seen. Hell, even I look ok on 4k, and that's got to say something good
Graeme
tonacidigital
Well-known member
"Hell, even I look ok on 4k, and that's got to say something good "
lol ..good to know as my low budget films will be utilizing regular humans with regular human facial flaws.
"lol ..good to know as my low budget films will be utilizing regular humans with regular human facial flaws.
laboprod
Active member
For me cinema is not question of quality of images but quality of story telling. Gears or money does not make good cinema, talented people (with gears an money) does. When I ask people around me, they haven't even noticed that "The Three Burials of Melquiades Estrada" was not shot on film.
Digital vs film is a specialist debate, public do not care, they just want good story.
But to enter the debate, coming from the computer world, I will remind you the Moore's law... hard drives are faster, cheaper and have more storage space, in very short time, as processors and as digital sensors, and so one.
Think to what kind of digital sensor you will find on the market in, let say, 25 years? Something you cannot imagine now! HDR images and z depth would have been accomplished long time ago...even the computer architecture will possibly have changed...
Digital vs film is a specialist debate, public do not care, they just want good story.
But to enter the debate, coming from the computer world, I will remind you the Moore's law... hard drives are faster, cheaper and have more storage space, in very short time, as processors and as digital sensors, and so one.
Think to what kind of digital sensor you will find on the market in, let say, 25 years? Something you cannot imagine now! HDR images and z depth would have been accomplished long time ago...even the computer architecture will possibly have changed...
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Robert Sanders
Well-known member
Thomas Mathai said:
In an ideal word, in a vacuum, under the most absolute perfect conditions with a lab perfectly dialed in and fresh batch of soup. But in the real world these resolution expectations are not realistic.
Many noted cinematographers like David Mullen have stated on several occassions that while 35mm film can be scanned at any resolution it ultimataely becomes a point where you're just resolving grain. At what point does one pixel equal one grain element? Where is that cieling? 2K? 3K? Just because you scan 35mm at 4K doesn't necessarily mean you've scanned additional detail.
Thomas Mathai
Active member
tonacidigital said:
They also said RedCine is a professional tool, so there will be a point where simplicty takes a backseat to having more control over what you are doing.
I'm sure there will be presets or setup wizards to help, with the ability to tweak as much as is needed.
Thomas Mathai
Active member
Robert Sanders said:
Well my point was to counter the notion that 35mm is just 2k. 2k is the norm because of limitations, if those limitations never existed 4k would be the norm. The joke is that 4k is the new 2k.
Most people aren't examining 4k frames individually, it just flys by at 24fps. There is detail there, and I always found it cool to see what's there.
If we only needed to worry about what the average audience will notice, then 1920x1080 would be enough, maybe even 1280x720.
tonacidigital
Well-known member
Thomas Mathai said:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=722125&postcount=
"Our goal, John, is to make it useable with no manual. It will be very powerful while very intuative. I'm not sure if all of you know how much we have bitten off. A 4k camera and a program to make it's use simple and powerful for almost every application. "A camera without a workflow will not sell" I was once told." Jim Jannard
Going back to the "complicated workflow." I think that anyone who is currently using the dvx/hvx workflow should have a smooth transition to the RED workflow. Instead of doing color correction in our program of choice (in my case final cut pro), I will be doing it in RED CINE. It goes wihtout saying that all new programs will require a learning curve, however, having the program created to be intuitive is the key thing here.
Graeme_Nattress
Red Team
I think that's something I said to Jim - "A camera without a workflow is a camera without any sales", or near enough. It's something that's very important to us at RED.
Graeme
Graeme
Thomas Mathai
Active member
tonacidigital said:
Well we'll see how well it works out. What is or isnt intuitive is subjective.
I've done enough troubleshooting for DVX users to know that there's always going to be some bumps along the way. Hopefully it'll all be minor.
tonacidigital
Well-known member
"Well we'll see how well it works out. What is or isnt intuitive is subjective."
Of course everything is subjective..and whats easy for one person may be hard for others.. the good news is...they -Jim, Graeme, Stuart and the rest of the REd team- recognize the importance of a "simple" workflow. As you have said..we'll see how it goes. I am at this point, perhaps naively, not worried.
Of course everything is subjective..and whats easy for one person may be hard for others.. the good news is...they -Jim, Graeme, Stuart and the rest of the REd team- recognize the importance of a "simple" workflow. As you have said..we'll see how it goes. I am at this point, perhaps naively, not worried.
alacritymedia
Active member
Someday, perhaps sooner than many think, we will capture 4k images with the Mysterium sensor, process them, and have them shown on 4k projectors. Does anyone doubt that within 3 years there will be several options for shooting in 4k? I firmly believe the computer horsepower issues of 2006 will be long forgotten by 2010, anyone care to disagree with that? With a little help from Mark Cuban, the Landmark chain is already installing 4k digital projectors. So you think my 4k scenario is a fantasy, that nobody past the 5th row can see the difference, you might be right, but here's the biscuit-
With RedCine you can bump it down to 2k first thing and never look back. It may be that 5 years from now 2k is still all anyone needs. Fine. I would still be ecstatic to have the dynamic range, RAW color information, integrated workflow and scalability the Red Team is developing. If the only part of this work that interests you is the narrow slice you have found where you can make a living I have to respect that - and I can understand why you might want the rules of game to change slowly, particularly if you have capital investments to amortize. For me the scalability is critical. I need to be able to meet the needs of a wide variety of clients doing projects of many shapes and sizes. If I can do them all with the same camera, and have that camera meet virtually any spec for a decade or more - score!
Blair S. Paulsen
RedOne #19
With RedCine you can bump it down to 2k first thing and never look back. It may be that 5 years from now 2k is still all anyone needs. Fine. I would still be ecstatic to have the dynamic range, RAW color information, integrated workflow and scalability the Red Team is developing. If the only part of this work that interests you is the narrow slice you have found where you can make a living I have to respect that - and I can understand why you might want the rules of game to change slowly, particularly if you have capital investments to amortize. For me the scalability is critical. I need to be able to meet the needs of a wide variety of clients doing projects of many shapes and sizes. If I can do them all with the same camera, and have that camera meet virtually any spec for a decade or more - score!
Blair S. Paulsen
RedOne #19