RED camera ( a message from the founder )

This camera system probably won't end up in a lot of people's hands unless they (RED) want a price war to break out, which is good for buyers in the end as technology is taken up a notch but it gets other companies off their butts and flustered. For $10k, I'd go for this camera, I might even go for $20k if it delivers everything it's currently estimated to offer right now, but any pricing less is just gravy.

It's smart that they're not releasing a price as that has backfired for quite a few companies in a way. 35mm projects such as the G35 have lost a little to competition because of pre-announcing their prices and when the real price comes around, people based on the "I may as well just go with *BLANK* instead!" go with the competition. Though this is a small number and it doesn't hurt specifically the G35 sales at all, it is just an example.

When I attend NAB 2006, Jim, I hope to see this camera prototype and hear the speech that goes along with it. Good luck!
 
Indeed. I mean, I would not be surprised if the imager itself cost 20K at least. I mean, look at all the websites for companies that make these chips. NO one has a publically available 4K chip that can run at 60fps. NO ONE. It has to be a custom piece that will cost a whole hell of a lot.

Makes me seriously think about a career change so I can make more money...
 
I have lots of Czech friends... could use a Slovakian supporter. Thanks.

As to the skeptics...

When we announced our intentions to make a sunglass in 1984, the Vuarnet National Sales Manager publically stated that we were a joke and had no business getting in a market we knew nothing about. Three years later we passed them in sales. Eight years after that, we passed RayBan in sales. I can think of nothing that ever motivated me more than that guy's comment... not sure where he is now. I appreciate the skepticism. It drives us. I know exactly what we are up against. The only way to enter a market is with a better product. That is exactly what we intend to do. We will get shot at, taken lightly and disrespected along the way. But we have put on our helmets and are ready to enter the game. Somebody's got to kill us to get us to quit.
 
Elsewhere someone said similar things to what are being said here...about how a camera like this would cost $250K, so there is no reason to get excited, etc.
I hope Jim doesn't mind me quoting his answer here - but his response was:

"The idea is that this camera will put a smile on everyone's face... $250,000 would not make me smile if I was the buyer."

I think it seems clear that he hopes to make this camera accessible to people who are currently shooting at 'our' level. If not, why would he be seeking input from people here and over at DVinfo? I don't recall seeing the developers of the Viper or the Genesis asking for our input.
And why would they? The people here are not their target market.

I wouldn't worry about the price right now. As soon as they feel confident about a price range they can deliver I'm sure they'll announce it.
Until then let's just see what unfolds... and cheer RED on in the meanwhile.
 
Well even half of 250K is a ways away from our level =D. I can possibly see somewhere around the varicam price range though. In any case, I wish you the best of luck Jim. I'm ecstatic about this and will be watching closely. This is precisely what the industry needs.
 
good point Luis. I expect pricing to be way less then $250k, I dare even guess to be affordable to some of us here as well. I am pretty sure its not gonna be $5k though, I can bet my poodle on that one, you just cant do it (yet) with the cost of the parts needed for this kinda camera. Im crossing my fingers for a price i just can't refuse.

The fact that a guy (Jim) that has more money then probaly all of us combined and is way up high on the Forbes list, is hanging out here talking to us at DVXuser probally as mentioned means there is a reason he is talking to us.. and most of us arn't in the market for a $200,000 camera, even a $100,000 camera. But who knows.

And thanks Jim for your little word of wisdom.. I like the fact that your an "underdog" but with big guns... should mix things up a little.
 
The issue, of course, is lens prices: good PL mount lenses are approximately a gajillion dollars. (Well, ten or twenty thousand for a useable--not even good but just useable--set.)

So the camera cannot be "prosumer" cheap. It can't because it requires lenses which aren't "prosumer" cheap so the cost of the whole set up will be pricey one way or the other. Beyond this, Oakleys (which are nice, I owned a pair until it got stolen) aren't exactly cheap themselves. I don't think Jim is going to cut corners and I don't think we're going to get a dirt cheap camera, as everyone I'm sure is hoping. I would be VERY surprised by anything under $15,000. But that's still way less than a tenth the cost of the competition, which offers less. So even at $100,000 this would be an amazing camera. Of course, it would also have a very limited market at that price, and a limited market means high margins are required. To make money, you need a product with a high price (cinealta) or a large market (dvx). An "inbetween" product has a tough time. So Jim has to either make this thing dirt cheap (under twenty grand) or super expensive (over $100,000) and I'm sincerely hoping for dirt cheap. That way, every rental house can buy a couple, as can every production house.

I don't see this being a "prosumer" or "hobbyist" product. I mean, with the cost of lenses, follow focus, etc. and the size of a crew needed to shoot with a 35mm sensor, there just ISN'T the market.

But as direct competition with super 16 (and ultimately likely a FAR better product) I can see this being totally revolutionary. Without the cost of film stock as an issue, I'd easily pay $1000-$2000 a week to rent something like this and there are others who would pay far more. Obviously, I'm excited and really hope to rent one some day.

By the way, super 35 sized CMOS chips that shoot 3fps at 9mp cost about 90 dollars in bulk. The chips aren't that expensive (though ones that do 60fps would obviously cost far more.)
 
Ohh Im thinking red will be on par with Thompson/Grass Valley in price...if Thompson just dont buy them outright with todays market
 
SalaTar said:
Ohh Im thinking red will be on par with Thompson/Grass Valley in price...if Thompson just dont buy them outright with todays market
Click to expand...

From what has been said so far I for one will be shocked it they are at Viper prices.
Personally, I expect it to be much much much lower.

The Viper is a rental camera.
Red doesn't seem to be interested in making a camera for rental houses alone.

And given Jim's attitude, and his history, I don't think he's going to be interested in selling the company anytime soon.

Either way, price speculation is a moot point at this stage.
Why not discuss what we'd like to see, as opposed to what we'd like to pay?
 
Good points Policar.. I guess we need to look at what level of competition it has.. obviously, with the current specs the camera beats pretty much everything out there.. everything. Considering out there goes up to $250,000... for this camera to come in at under $100,000 would be quite a breakthrough. But maybe there will be lower versions at lower prices, we will need to wait and see.

I guess when that price point is announced, things get really hot, or things get really cold, depending on how fat your wallet is.
 
SalaTar said:
I'll gladly eat my words...btw
Click to expand...

one reason that I changed the color of this special Red section to the same color as Ketchup. I think alot of us are in for a meal and a half :)
 
Well, i was thinking That they could offer a 1080P (and all the way down), 4:2:2, RED codec or JPEG2000 and variable framerates as well as one of their fixed lenses (a good one) Like a low end series for prosumer people and events videographers... Kinda like it. And foget about tape. RAID all the way.

The best thing. Low end series...

Just imagine a wedding with this. We would get the first dance in the bride´s next wedding.

Wouldn´t be nice? Anyway i´m starting to save money and planning a way to get the big one.
 
What Id like to see.
Moore's Law, define a scalable codec for it that runs the OS gambit.
Better yet open source it.

Make an editor, that woks..
Add a truly capable composite app that works with editor...

dreams oh dreams
 
mr._guiyotinne said:
a low end series for prosumer people and events videographers...
Click to expand...

And then you'd need your "event focus puller." You really can't shoot 35mm sensor size without a crew of 2-3 just to man the camera.

And considering a "cheap" variable prime (T2.2) retails for $30,00 and that you'd need all three of them to cover the dvx's zoom range as well as a 4k monitor to pull focus and check color (or at the very least a 1080p dell monitor, which is cheap but not portable), you begin to see the problems you run into.

A super 16 style camera that takes c-mount lenses, shoots 1080p, and sells for $10,000 would be un-frickin-believable, though and practical for those purposes. (But let's be honest--you cannot shoot a wedding with a 35mm sized chip, at least not without a crew as large as you'd have for a high-budget documentary.)
 
Well Policar.. you can buy PL mount primes off Ebay for less than $2k. Still hella expensive for some, but not quite $30,000.

And whats with the wedding stuff lol? Im not Red, but if I was them I wouldnt try to break into the $5k camera territory right now.. We have the HVX, and enough others to keep people happy in that range.
 
True, but I was saying that "one lens" being bundled with the camera would not be realistic. You either need a few expensive primes, or one ultra expensive zoom.

And I agree about the wedding stuff. That was my point.
 
True Policar.. I think a good route for most (if we end up being able to afford it) is to get the camera and a zoom.. then slowly track down some nice primes, like some used Cooke S4's if the Red's end up being too pricey.

I love those Cookes, but i cant wait to see the Iridium Reds. I have a feeling the glass may be the easiest part for Red to get right... considering who they are.
 
I dind´t spoke about the size of sensor.

I understand the problematics of a 35mm size. But that´s the High end model. With a good fixed (zoom) lens(Policar, sorry about using fixed. I wanted to say stuck to the camera´s body... I create stories, what kills me is the paper work... and expresing myself in other language as good as i can) and the better light management would make a very nice events and B camera. 2/3. The point was the sarcasm of calling a camera like this low end. :thumbsup:

But that´s another sensor and it kills the basic idea and target market of filmakers. But "events" is another group, they need help too (we are all artists) and a lot of us have been there or still lives with it to get the bread. :undecided

EDITED: I write too slow...
 
A large sensor should mean for easier lens manufacture though - more glass, but it doesn't need to be anywhere near as sharp. Because cinema lenses are not consumer items produced in large numbers, they're ultra expensive for what they are. I see no reason why Red can't make an affordable zoom and prime for the Red camera, just as you can get very affordable high quality primes and zooms for the even larger chips of 35mm DSLR's. An EOS or Nikon mount would a very cool feature...

Critical focus issues can be got around in a number of ways though - you can shrink the 4k image down to HD size, making it sharper, or centre crop on the sensor, increasing DOF. You see, if you start with a 4k sensor, you're scalable right from movie production right down to wedding video, if you want. It's a neat concept.

Graeme
 
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