Red announces Scarlet to ship in 2011
- Thread starter sblfilms
- Start date
J Davis
Veteran
@squig, if its 18mm on a 7d you're ok, on a 5d you can get fairly close (approx 22-24mm fov)
Grug
Veteran
Personally, I don't think the issue between the sensor sizes is DoF so much as 'perspective', I prefer a S35mm image over a 16mm image, a full-frame/vistavision image over a S35mm image, a 6x7 medium format image over a full-frame image and an 8x10 large-format image over a medium format image.
And larger format images are rarely used for shallow DoF shots, they're used for the detail they provide in deep DoF shots. But what makes them stand out so much (more than just the detail) is the perspective of the image (the way it looks because of the larger image format) that's what makes them look so special - and it's what makes the 5DII look special compared to other cameras on the market (even with all it's limitations and issues).
There's a quality to larger format images that just seems to make them nicer (to me at least), does that make them ideal for all production environments? Certainly not. But without the cost and sensitivity limitations of film, I can certainly see the appeal of shooting 'cinematic' material on larger imagers.
And larger format images are rarely used for shallow DoF shots, they're used for the detail they provide in deep DoF shots. But what makes them stand out so much (more than just the detail) is the perspective of the image (the way it looks because of the larger image format) that's what makes them look so special - and it's what makes the 5DII look special compared to other cameras on the market (even with all it's limitations and issues).
There's a quality to larger format images that just seems to make them nicer (to me at least), does that make them ideal for all production environments? Certainly not. But without the cost and sensitivity limitations of film, I can certainly see the appeal of shooting 'cinematic' material on larger imagers.
Longer focal length lenses flatten perspective depth. In that sense 2/3" won't match the look of 35mm at the same field of view with a shorter focal length lens. But to say the "cinematic" look is exclusive to 35mm format is simply not true. There are many examples of excellent films with aesthetically appropriate looks that are shot on 2/3" or 16mm format cameras.
It is easy to understand the fascination with 35mm aesthetics since it has only recently become accessible at very low cost to student and indie film makers. New toys and new tools to explore.
But that doesn't make 35mm the only choice, or even the best choice for every subject or every style of shooting.
It is easy to understand the fascination with 35mm aesthetics since it has only recently become accessible at very low cost to student and indie film makers. New toys and new tools to explore.
But that doesn't make 35mm the only choice, or even the best choice for every subject or every style of shooting.
Barry_Green
Moderator
No they wouldn't.
Yes it does. You can get exactly the same look, the exact same perspective and FOV and DOF and everything. I did this a while back with my GH2 using the ETC mode -- you can set it in 1/2-2/3" mode with the ETC and zoom out to get the same FOV, and if you open up the iris to compensate for the DOF, nobody would be able to tell the difference between that shot, and one where you used the full cine-sized sensor, zoomed in for the same framing, and stopped down for equivalent DOF.
No difference. Just make sure you're shooting from the same place.
kyle.presley
Well-known member
2/3" from a 25mm f/1.4 lens. Can you tell it's not 35mm?
kyle.presley
Well-known member
25mm f/1.4 at 2/3" FOV on a lesser quality lens, perhaps where stip gets "different" from. Ugly bokeh.
squig
Veteran
nasty. c-mount cctv? looks like helios 44-2 but nastier.
bgundu
Veteran
Thats's just sloppy journalism. Officially RED has not sued anyone. Amazing how some forum banter can become headline news to generate traffic.
Bad article... but this comment cracked me up:
Alec Sprinkle on 09.26.11 @ 9:36AM
Yeah, I heard the trial begins next month … now delayed until January 2012 … now it’s called EpicTrial … now it’s discontinued.
More to come Nov. 3rd.
Alec Sprinkle on 09.26.11 @ 9:36AM
Yeah, I heard the trial begins next month … now delayed until January 2012 … now it’s called EpicTrial … now it’s discontinued.
More to come Nov. 3rd.
John Caballero
Veteran
The wackiest part is the reaction of the Redusers forum members. Some of them were even going to start throwing their Arri equipment out the window because the company had done something so evil towards Red! Why don't just produce cutting edge cameras and just sell them. That's all. Everything else should be internal company drama. Look at the way the Japanese camera companies operate and learn how to become an industry leader. An amazingly silly and disparate journey it has been.
Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
Oh the drama.
I don't like when someone wrongs another. Brevin, a former Arri (west coast) exec and former BandPro employee has gotten what he deserved. From what he got in terms of punishment it is obvious he didn't attain technical knowledge that had caused somebody considerable financial loss. Had he found some tech secret from BandPro's CEO email and used it to bleed them of millions, there would have been more restitution, in my opinion.
Now how Jannard was involved is not yet known. In fact, nothing is really known. The only details of Red's involvement have ONLY been from Red. We don't know if Jannard is suing because his email was hacked, or if simply his emails to Band (the CEO of BandPro) was read. If Jannard's private emails were compromised illegally, then fine, by all means he should seek legal matters of his private emails. His private emails.
I think it's irresponsible of Red, and quite the mud-slinging business move, to air their dirty laundry before
a) a lawsuit has actually been filed
b) before they can give any details about what they are accusing Arri (the company) of doing or of having done.
c) or even before the law/courts find Arri is guilty (or not).
I'm not defending Arri or being unfair to Red... but let's look at the facts. There are no facts. In the United States of America, people are innocent until proven guilty.
To play devils advocate, as of right now, we have Jannard and Jarred firing up the war helmet wearing zealot machine, by discussing how Arri has shockingly been taking part in the worst (non-specific) business practices Jannard has ever seen in all his years of business. It's so bad, Jannard is having to leave his post to fight legal battles full time over something (non specific) that has ruined his respect for Arri a company he once admired... etc.
Without offering what has been alleged and since Arri has been found guilty of nothing against Red thus far... what does hanging this dirty laundry out for RedUser's to see really do? Why did the Red community need to know this? What it does is another shady business practice... it depicts Arri as an evil and shady company (without basis), draws a line in the sand, and helps polarize the film-making community. Lemons into lemonade, huh red?
So, without giving any details, Red has simply made some vague comments against Arri, which has done nothing productive but turn their already loyal fan-base to further turn on their competition.
Now we should not take a few members reactions to judge an entire forum, but many have suggested Arri boycotts. Already a couple of forum members have alluded to these events as being reminiscent of the stolen Epic #6. I can only figure they are alluding to Arri stealing it? Or just the amount of heartbreak rippling through Redtopia? One big RedUser forum member has said he will sell all his Arri gear including his set of Zeiss master primes because he didn't want any gear with the "ENEMY's" name on it.
Enemy?
Is Jannards private and yet unknown problems a reason to polarize a filmmaking community?
I am a fair guy.
If a former Arri exec has done Jannard wrong, I hope they get him for it. I hope anyone else involved will have justice brought to them as well. What Brevin did was not right. He was caught, tried, and punished for his role with BandPro. I hope the guilty find their consequence and the innocent find their justice. But by talking about it now, Red has gone and done another act of business warfare. Without offering details or waiting until they can, this just seems like a pre-emptive smear campaign at Arri.
Irresponsible in my humble opinion. Airing their dirty laundry before their legal battle, without reason or explanation, Red has succeeded in throwing mud onto Arri and have lit the fire for a polarizing and scary hate-fest among their user base. Yet we don't even know for what, or if they are guilty of it or not.
The only thing that has been done in this cinematographer's eyes (I use products from both companies every day), is that Red has aired its dirty laundry for everyone to see, but has offered no explanations or details, which has only encouraged everyone at Reduser.net to gear up for war, but have no idea why.
I support Red if they have been wronged. I trust the US legal system will settle the matter, and I hope Jannard finds his justice. In the meantime, Jannards disappointment and anger at his competitor Arri is not yet reason for me to give up on Arri. When things become clear, and evidence is provided, I will then and only then make my judgment on their company, and decide if I want to do anything about it.
I don't like when someone wrongs another. Brevin, a former Arri (west coast) exec and former BandPro employee has gotten what he deserved. From what he got in terms of punishment it is obvious he didn't attain technical knowledge that had caused somebody considerable financial loss. Had he found some tech secret from BandPro's CEO email and used it to bleed them of millions, there would have been more restitution, in my opinion.
Now how Jannard was involved is not yet known. In fact, nothing is really known. The only details of Red's involvement have ONLY been from Red. We don't know if Jannard is suing because his email was hacked, or if simply his emails to Band (the CEO of BandPro) was read. If Jannard's private emails were compromised illegally, then fine, by all means he should seek legal matters of his private emails. His private emails.
I think it's irresponsible of Red, and quite the mud-slinging business move, to air their dirty laundry before
a) a lawsuit has actually been filed
b) before they can give any details about what they are accusing Arri (the company) of doing or of having done.
c) or even before the law/courts find Arri is guilty (or not).
I'm not defending Arri or being unfair to Red... but let's look at the facts. There are no facts. In the United States of America, people are innocent until proven guilty.
To play devils advocate, as of right now, we have Jannard and Jarred firing up the war helmet wearing zealot machine, by discussing how Arri has shockingly been taking part in the worst (non-specific) business practices Jannard has ever seen in all his years of business. It's so bad, Jannard is having to leave his post to fight legal battles full time over something (non specific) that has ruined his respect for Arri a company he once admired... etc.
Without offering what has been alleged and since Arri has been found guilty of nothing against Red thus far... what does hanging this dirty laundry out for RedUser's to see really do? Why did the Red community need to know this? What it does is another shady business practice... it depicts Arri as an evil and shady company (without basis), draws a line in the sand, and helps polarize the film-making community. Lemons into lemonade, huh red?
So, without giving any details, Red has simply made some vague comments against Arri, which has done nothing productive but turn their already loyal fan-base to further turn on their competition.
Now we should not take a few members reactions to judge an entire forum, but many have suggested Arri boycotts. Already a couple of forum members have alluded to these events as being reminiscent of the stolen Epic #6. I can only figure they are alluding to Arri stealing it? Or just the amount of heartbreak rippling through Redtopia? One big RedUser forum member has said he will sell all his Arri gear including his set of Zeiss master primes because he didn't want any gear with the "ENEMY's" name on it.
Enemy?
Is Jannards private and yet unknown problems a reason to polarize a filmmaking community?
I am a fair guy.
If a former Arri exec has done Jannard wrong, I hope they get him for it. I hope anyone else involved will have justice brought to them as well. What Brevin did was not right. He was caught, tried, and punished for his role with BandPro. I hope the guilty find their consequence and the innocent find their justice. But by talking about it now, Red has gone and done another act of business warfare. Without offering details or waiting until they can, this just seems like a pre-emptive smear campaign at Arri.
Irresponsible in my humble opinion. Airing their dirty laundry before their legal battle, without reason or explanation, Red has succeeded in throwing mud onto Arri and have lit the fire for a polarizing and scary hate-fest among their user base. Yet we don't even know for what, or if they are guilty of it or not.
The only thing that has been done in this cinematographer's eyes (I use products from both companies every day), is that Red has aired its dirty laundry for everyone to see, but has offered no explanations or details, which has only encouraged everyone at Reduser.net to gear up for war, but have no idea why.
I support Red if they have been wronged. I trust the US legal system will settle the matter, and I hope Jannard finds his justice. In the meantime, Jannards disappointment and anger at his competitor Arri is not yet reason for me to give up on Arri. When things become clear, and evidence is provided, I will then and only then make my judgment on their company, and decide if I want to do anything about it.
Last edited:
It's a worrying state of affairs... both the Brevin affair and the RED reaction. Surely RED are not niave enough to not know the ramifications of the recent postings.
This, coupled with the Nov 3rd announcement, designed to snigger at Canon (no matter what is released by both parties) has left a bitter taste in my mouth regarding RED....
Maybe i'm just too English for not liking all this war/arrogance/looking down their noses kind of business talk. I'm sure it is cut throat over here too.... but the customers don't tend to see it. I like conservative companies.
I also like great cameras though.... so hopefully everyone will just stop the macho BS and launch cameras.
This, coupled with the Nov 3rd announcement, designed to snigger at Canon (no matter what is released by both parties) has left a bitter taste in my mouth regarding RED....
Maybe i'm just too English for not liking all this war/arrogance/looking down their noses kind of business talk. I'm sure it is cut throat over here too.... but the customers don't tend to see it. I like conservative companies.
I also like great cameras though.... so hopefully everyone will just stop the macho BS and launch cameras.
Samuel H
Major Contributor
wow, this morning this thread was deep in a 2/3"-DoF-is-enough-or-not discussion; I went away from my keyboard for a few hours, shot some tests, came back to post... and well, now this is going to be nearly off-topic, but anyway, I worked a bit on it so here it goes:
Say you have three different cameras: a full frame stills camera (1x crop factor), an APS-C stills camera (1.6x crop factor) and a 2/3" system videocamera (3.9x crop factor). They all deliver very nice video at 1920x1080 resolution and 24 frames per second. Glass is ideally perfect on all three of them. You plant your tripod on a particular spot, and shoot from there using all three cameras. Then, you'll get exactly the same images, if you use the following settings:
* 50mm lens set at f/5.6, 1/50s and ISO 1600 on a full frame camera
* 31mm lens set at f/3.5, 1/50s and ISO 600 on an APS-C camera
* 13mm lens set at f/1.4, 1/50s and ISO 100 on a 2/3" camera
In all three cases, field of view, depth of field and exposure will be absolutely identical. And also compression, face distortion because of perspective, size of out-of-focus highlights... The images will be basically the same (except for the quality of the glass and the abilities of the sensor).
if you still don't believe this, you can check my tests here, or can shoot your own:
http://www.similaar.com/foto/doftest/doftest.html
Say you have three different cameras: a full frame stills camera (1x crop factor), an APS-C stills camera (1.6x crop factor) and a 2/3" system videocamera (3.9x crop factor). They all deliver very nice video at 1920x1080 resolution and 24 frames per second. Glass is ideally perfect on all three of them. You plant your tripod on a particular spot, and shoot from there using all three cameras. Then, you'll get exactly the same images, if you use the following settings:
* 50mm lens set at f/5.6, 1/50s and ISO 1600 on a full frame camera
* 31mm lens set at f/3.5, 1/50s and ISO 600 on an APS-C camera
* 13mm lens set at f/1.4, 1/50s and ISO 100 on a 2/3" camera
In all three cases, field of view, depth of field and exposure will be absolutely identical. And also compression, face distortion because of perspective, size of out-of-focus highlights... The images will be basically the same (except for the quality of the glass and the abilities of the sensor).
if you still don't believe this, you can check my tests here, or can shoot your own:
http://www.similaar.com/foto/doftest/doftest.html
Jason Ramsey
Admin
yeah. let's bring this thread back around to the o.t.
thanks.
thanks.