Recording Concert (board feed)

[morgan_moore]

Thanks, Rick. According to the producer the house engineer will set up everything for me and feed me a good mix. I think I'm going to pick up a Zoom H5, engage the -20 pad and keep my fingers crossed ...

Of course this is what everyone assures you. Which is fine. 75% chance it will be good - but you gotta cover your ar_se IN WRITING for that 25%

ps how long to zoom batteries last? Ive always done this off the mains, (tape that plug into the socket with writing on it!) ideally with a 'recorder' (my EX1 or SD 702) that both take power from the mains and have a battery onboard should someone unplug the rig

S

 

[Noiz2]

Others have sort of mentioned it but not really explained the biggest issue with the board mix. In a really large venue (think Arena) the mix should be pretty decent since a lot of the audience will be hearing mostly that mix. But in smaller venues the "house mix" is there to balance out the sound. So it often will not have much or any loud instruments. So for instance in a club, if the guitarist has a Marshall stack or some other big wall O' sound set up he may well not be in the house mix except as bleed. The vocalist though will be in there big so they can be heard over the guitar. So the board mix will not sound anything like what you hear in the concert, it will be big vocal and much lower guitar and drums and the bass will not have a lot of bass probably.

The house mix is also compensating for problems in the venue. So the EQ is often screwy because they are notching out frequencies that resonate in the room.

It is possible to mic everything so that you can create a submix for recording that is seperate from the house mix, but unless you have talked to the sound person and they have said they are doing this, it's probably not happening.

 

[Rick R]

"I think I'm going to pick up a Zoom H5, engage the -20 pad and keep my fingers crossed .."
- If the H5 is like the H4n, the 1/4" TRS jacks are line in. As far as I can tell, the manual is unclear. On most line/mic inputs, any pads are on the mic inputs and 20db of attenuation is not enough to feed a +4 dB signal through a -60dB mic input.
Be aware that most FOH consoles have a lot more 1/4" TRS line outs than XLRs, for the mains, sub masters, matrix & aux outputs, so you should have 1/4" TRS to 1/4" TRS cables to feed the recorder. Additionally, if the H5 has the ability to delay the external inputs, set the delay @ 1ms per foot from the stage. If not, you can always line up the console feed the room mics in post, assuming they're on separate tracks. FWIW, I use a Tascam DR-40 which is similar to the H5 and works out good for bands I work with if that do not have the budget to multi-track record & mix.

 

[scorsesefan]

Scott, the venue will be very big so I assume everything will be in the mix (I hope)...Rick, so the dr40 does a good job on the line input (hot signal)?

 

[ozmorphasis]

Scott, the venue will be very big so I assume everything will be in the mix (I hope)...Rick, so the dr40 does a good job on the line input (hot signal)?

(Not Scott, but...

I've used the DR40 for this scenario and it does fine with line, plus it let's you record two levels for safety and you can set both.

 

[scorsesefan]

(Not Scott, but...

I've used the DR40 for this scenario and it does fine with line, plus it let's you record two levels for safety and you can set both.

Cool, thanks. How are the pres on the DR40?.. Seems the H5 takes line in on the XLR, too... (from BH product page)

 

[ozmorphasis]

Cool, thanks. How are the pres on the DR40?.. Seems the H5 takes line in on the XLR, too... (from BH product page)

View attachment 124456

The pres are ok, nothing amazing, but for line in, they get by just fine, showing much more weakness when turning on phantom and cranking gain for mics.

I'm not crazy about the onboard mics though. They have a high freq bump that sounds unnatural to me. Even the diminutive zoom H1 does better in my opinion in terms of the mics, but you get solid combo inputs on the dr40.

 

[scorsesefan]

Would a dr680 mki do the job? My buddy has one he can lend me... Geez I wish I hadn't just sold my F8:/

 

[ceejay7777]

FWIW, we (two of us) used to do a regular mid-sized venue gig where the WS camera recorded 1 mic and one mono feed from the desk. In addition, an 8-track recorded a stereo desk feed plus pre-fader inserts from another six mics that we were able to select. All eight had rudimentary compressor/limiters across them. The final result was a quick-and-dirty mix of all ten tracks with a fair bit of final compression to "glue" them together. On one occasion we lost the 8-track due to a power glitch and ran with just the camera tracks - and got away with it! But it was worthwhile going to the extra effort even if the two of us were the only ones that really noticed!

 

[Noiz2]

Related to the last post, but probably not practical for you unless you have a sound guy.

For big events with lots of inputs I have used Boom Recorder and an Alesis FW mixer. You could use a lot of other input devices, BR is compatable with a lot of devices.

And you can combine a lot of them to create one really big vertual input device.

LOTS of tracks, plus auto backups and mixdowns. Incredibly stable (I tested 128 tracks to a USB2 drive and it didn't glitch over 30 min).

Probably not for this but a good option to know about.

 

[Braindead@70]

After taking a board feed from volunteer operators, part time operators, venue operators and "pros", I have learned a critical lesson......NEVER trust them!!!

I always take their
feed into MY mixer. I try to have an assistant ride the mixer but sometimes I run the camera and the mixer. I think the board operators forget we are there or they just don't care.

 

[Rick R]

"So the dr40 does a good job on the line input (hot signal)?"
- Never had a problem with the DR40 line inputs.. true +4dB and always clean in my experience. The combo connectors are mic/line via a hardwired switch, so either the XLR or 1/4" can be used. The only possible issue for some is that the line level record volume only offers about plus/minus 6dB adj. The internal mics sound decent for room pick-up and can be set (physically) to 90 or 120 degrees.
A DR-680 would work, but it does not have any internal mics and battery life sucks.. (if that's an issue) It can record and output a user adjustable mix though, as well as the RCA -10dB ISO track outputs can come in handy.

 

[Noiz2]

After taking a board feed from volunteer operators, part time operators, venue operators and "pros", I have learned a critical lesson......NEVER trust them!!!

I always take their
feed into MY mixer. I try to have an assistant ride the mixer but sometimes I run the camera and the mixer. I think the board operators forget we are there or they just don't care.

More like getting you a good recording mix is not their job. Their job is to get a good mix into the house for the live audience and that should be their first priority.

The conflict is usually the facility person or producer don't want to spend the money for another sound person focused on getting a good recording so they will say just about anything to justify that. Live sound is not the same thing as recording. I have done both. It's not that the live board op doesn't want to help you, though if they were not given a heads up and you didn't come in early and contact them ahead of time they may well not be happy about having to fit your needs on top of what they need to do for the job they are getting paid to do.

There is a lot to do for a live show and dealing with you is a distraction that may cause them problems. So what you should do is try and talk to the mixer/ operator/ tech. (whoever will be working the concert) a day or more ahead of time. Get in as early as they will let you so you can be hooked up and tested before the mixer gets busy with show prep. Know what you need from them, have lots of adapters. Be nice.

If they feel you know that you are an imposition and that while you need to do a good job, you understand that to a certain extent accommodating you is a PITA for them and you are doing your part to mitigate that PITA, you may be surprised by how helpful they can be.

I have been the mixer when some idiot "filmmaker" showed up after the house was open and expected me to drop everything and figure out how to get them a feed for equipment they didn't know how to operate. If I haven't been given a heads up and don't have something set to hand them they are 90% SOL because at that point I don't have time to deal with them. My job is not to make sure you get a good recording My job is to make sure the audience has a good show, and if I haven't had a chance to make sure your unknown, ungrounded mystery box is not going to toss a bunch of hums and buzzes into my system I am very unlikely to let you just "plug in" after the house is open.

So when I come in I work very hard to NOT be that person.

 

[scorsesefan]

"So the dr40 does a good job on the line input (hot signal)?"
- Never had a problem with the DR40 line inputs.. true +4dB and always clean in my experience. The combo connectors are mic/line via a hardwired switch, so either the XLR or 1/4" can be used. The only possible issue for some is that the line level record volume only offers about plus/minus 6dB adj. The internal mics sound decent for room pick-up and can be set (physically) to 90 or 120 degrees.
A DR-680 would work, but it does not have any internal mics and battery life sucks.. (if that's an issue) It can record and output a user adjustable mix though, as well as the RCA -10dB ISO track outputs can come in handy.

Okay, thanks Rick. So, do you think if everything hits the fan it's a good idea to get something from the onboards? What is the possibility it will be useable from (most likely) the mixers position on the stage? I also be recording sound from my C100 (at875r) and onboard camera mics... BTW Scott I plan on contacting the sound guy (or girl) ASAP and starting that dialogue, so it's not me just showing up and expecting them to drop everything to help me...

 

[paulears]

Lots of good advice here - and I get the impression much is being ignored. Any notion a promoter/producer even understands sound went out the window when they said they'd make sure it happened.

Last night the band I'm involved with were playing a very big and rather posh event in a historic building - with simply dreadful acoustics. The bass was way out of control - so notes would boom shatteringly and others would be weak - the PA engineer, a guy I have lots of time for had bizarre eq on many channels. The guitarist was pulled out of the mix and so was the snare drum - both hugely too loud, so not required at all. He spent most of the gig wandering around with an iPad trying to make a pot of poo into something at least OK - recording what came out of the mixer in any way other than totally multitrack - which is often very simple - plug in the computer and record all the data in one go for fiddling with afterwards.

In these kinds of scenarios - let's say the engineer has been told that VIDEO sound is more important than the audience sound. (This rarely happens of course, because very few events have video as the primary user, and live sound secondary. ) How does the engineer do a mix for you - he has sends or a matrix so can set up a mix for you. He could put the headphones on, and produce you a mix, balancing it perfectly for the video. However - he doesn't have a spare set of ears and brain for the audience mix - which will be the one prone to feedback, and perhaps he also has to manage monitors, doing send tweaking too - which needs him to pay great attention to the performers watching for problems. In this case, even looking at your overall levels might be too much. I've done it myself. Set a level for video at soundcheck, but then during the show, the levels go up, but the video feed is also now far too hot, distorting everything. Noticing 20 mins in, when things settle down is too late. Not his fault - he was very busy.

I always hear them being slagged off - but it really is not their job to monitor what you are getting - if their manager tells them to do it, they'll ask for an assistant to get it done properly - somebody tasked to provide the audio for the video feed. They probably won't get help - despite what you are promised, because management don't understand.

Live sound is complex and difficult - and NOT just a cable!

 

[cpreston]

I also want to promote the idea that you assure your client that you can't be held liable for bad sound. The number of things that can go wrong by relying on a board mix is huge. If sound is important (you think it would be for a concert), they should budget in a location sound recordist. The best way to record a concert is to split all of the mic signals before they reach the board and possibly add a couple DI boxes directly from the instruments. Most of the time, the board feed is going to sound bad. And I do mean most of the time. A room mic is also going to sound terrible. Pull up a video of a concert shot with iphone and let your client know that this is the sound they should expect to get without a separate sound recordist and make sure that they are ok with that.

 

[scorsesefan]

Guys, thanks for the advice. It's been very helpful... I just want to clarify the situation. Based on some of your responses I emailed the producer and asked them explicitly for a dedicated sound guy. I explained that I'm a DP and an editor and that I could handle BASIC location sound that you would expect from a videographer. In short, I stated some of the same reservations and concerns that you guys have highlighted...

But the producer informed me that there was no budget for a sound man, so... I hired a PA out of my own pocket (to at least monitor the feed) an I'm going to hope for the best. Honestly, I've had to replace some expensive equipment lately and I can't afford to turn down work right now...

 

[Rick R]

"So, do you think if everything hits the fan it's a good idea to get something from the on-boards?"
- My use of any room mics (internal recorder mics) is to pick up the audience response and to augment the board mix to make it sound 'live'. I guess it's better than nothing if the console feed is unusable.
BTW, an example with a DR-40.. console feed and internal mics. A set in a NJ night club of a band I work with.
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AljD_0O2kswc02xKkEaIn8YIOTpU

 

[Braindead@70]

More like getting you a good recording mix is not their job. Their job is to get a good mix into the house for the live audience and that should be their first priority.

The conflict is usually the facility person or producer don't want to spend the money for another sound person focused on getting a good recording so they will say just about anything to justify that. Live sound is not the same thing as recording. I have done both. It's not that the live board op doesn't want to help you, though if they were not given a heads up and you didn't come in early and contact them ahead of time they may well not be happy about having to fit your needs on top of what they need to do for the job they are getting paid to do.

There is a lot to do for a live show and dealing with you is a distraction that may cause them problems. So what you should do is try and talk to the mixer/ operator/ tech. (whoever will be working the concert) a day or more ahead of time. Get in as early as they will let you so you can be hooked up and tested before the mixer gets busy with show prep. Know what you need from them, have lots of adapters. Be nice.

If they feel you know that you are an imposition and that while you need to do a good job, you understand that to a certain extent accommodating you is a PITA for them and you are doing your part to mitigate that PITA, you may be surprised by how helpful they can be.

I have been the mixer when some idiot "filmmaker" showed up after the house was open and expected me to drop everything and figure out how to get them a feed for equipment they didn't know how to operate. If I haven't been given a heads up and don't have something set to hand them they are 90% SOL because at that point I don't have time to deal with them. My job is not to make sure you get a good recording My job is to make sure the audience has a good show, and if I haven't had a chance to make sure your unknown, ungrounded mystery box is not going to toss a bunch of hums and buzzes into my system I am very unlikely to let you just "plug in" after the house is open.

So when I come in I work very hard to NOT be that person.

Well said! I have been in your position. I always visit a venue in advance and try to make an appointment with the board operator. For concerts, plays, etc., I attend the rehearsal and carry extra coffee for the guy/guys on the board. Unfortunately, many times the operator has limited skill and does not understand my needs. Many times I help the board guy set up his equipment at the rehearsal! I bet you do too. At the big events, we are working with pros and they are busier than a one legged man in a butt kicking contest. These guys know exactly what you need and it is included in their standard setup. I work very few big events because they usually have their own production crew.

 

[paulears]

It does happen in reverse too. You are there shooting clips for specific purposes - often you need very particular shots, and what happens between them may be covered by another camera in the edit, then you get a little email - could you also provide a feed into the video system so your pics come out on the big screens. It means a totally different way to shoot - you cannot set up the shot where the talent walks into the frame, you can't suddenly do five seconds of each band member during one boring song to use as cutaways for the song you know comes next - because the five seconds of steady video are interspersed with shaky wobbly out of focus stuff while you hunt for the next person - if it's going to screen you have to do proper pans, and focus pulling, because if you don't - you must be a rubbish cameraman.

At the very best, the sound op might make sure your led meter doesn't go off the bottom or over the top of the scale - expecting any control of the mix is impossible - unless, as I have had a few do - they simply throw a compressor on your feed and send you the level that never changes, that they can set up and forget.