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taubkin said:
Why? they are cinematographers, not screenwriters or producers. They test the gear availiable to them to better use it when they have to. And testing means numbers and images. I do it too. I read about technology, and want to see test images and numbers, sometimes.

Cheers!
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why?.. sometimes, it seems the moving image is just tech stuff.. that is, numbers.. on my digital book.. and it is.. with a small difference: not just technology.. sometimes, there are other more relevant aspects.. for instance?

the money.. as beginning..

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taubkin, because here who pays the bills is the production house from this DVXuser's account.. i've noticed a PM from yours.. sorry but i don't know to who you'd like to speak to.. we are more than five people working from here.. though i'd try to guess and re-send it (doing my best) :)
 
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Jannard said:
Give us a few more minutes and we will be happy to sit side by side any camera for a full comparison test under the same conditions.

Jim
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Hi Jim,

Try to get a Genesis included, for some strange reason they don't want their camera tetsed.

Best wishes,

Stephen
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi Jim,

Try to get a Genesis included, for some strange reason they don't want their camera tetsed.

Best wishes,

Stephen
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there's no secret or strange reason at all.. try to save $10,000 and you can test the genesis how much time you want.. and to compare w/ whatever gear you wish.. at least, during a week but you can always arrange a better deal.. maybe for few days..

sure, you ain't a red customer.. only a tester.. or a 'few days' tester..

and a post reviewer..
 
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filmmaker1977 said:
yeah.. i'd like to see these cinematography.com or .net forums guys testing their skills with a script..

a shooting script.. :huh:

some actors.. and their moods.. :birthdays:

an edit decision list.. with real shots not just numbers.. :violent5:

raising funds.. or just trying to get it.. :embarasse

producing.. and paying the bills.. :evil:


:violin:
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Simply perfect!

But with the due respect, all the rest (the last post) is a bad move IMHO. What this Stephen Williams is doing is to be the devil's advocate. A part he really knows to play very well. He's very welcome.

Sorry people, but there are a lot of ass-kissers over here and this is not good for any Red investor.

Just my 0.2 cents.
 
filmmaker1977 said:
there's no secret or strange reason at all.. try to save $10,000 and you can test the genesis how much time you want.. and to compare w/ whatever gear you wish.. at least, during a week but you can always arrange a better deal.. maybe for few days..

sure, you ain't a red customer.. only a tester.. or a 'few days' tester..

and a post reviewer..
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Hi,

I understand Geoff Boyle was refused point blank. He did DP Mutant Chronicles so was in the market for a long rental. I have seen a photo of Geoff & his charts at an exibition in front of a Genesis. A security guard said "NON".

I my well be a Red Customer, I can afford one cash no finance required, I have PL mounted lenses, follow focus, matte boxes & sticks ready to go. I just need to test one first.

Stephen

EDIT Disney was also refused a test, link to cml
http://www.cinematography.net/digital-latitude.htm
 
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filmmaker1977 said:
why?.. sometimes, it seems the moving image is just tech stuff.. that is, numbers.. on my digital book.. and it is.. with a small difference: not just technology.. sometimes, there are other more relevant aspects.. for instance?

the money.. as beginning..
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hehehe, it's just that when we are talking about cameras, we are talking about cameras, tools. Nt the art we do with them. Of course, a camera is not the most important thing in a film. But why not talk about them and see their capabilities. Looking at numbers we can come to objective conclusions sometimes (instead of the subjective - "I prefer the images of Kodak 5205 over Kodak 5218" - I'm not implying those films are the same!). Sometimes we can say, "hey, for a greesncreen shot, or for motion tracking work, or for this texture you are imagining, the tool "X" is more appropriate. Anyway, among a bunch of techhead cinematographers, I have to say it's more useful to talk about that than discuss who liked Manoel de Oliveira's last film.

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taubkin, because here who pays the bills is the production house from this DVXuser's account.. i've noticed a PM from yours.. sorry but i don't know to who you'd like to speak to.. we are more than five people working from here.. though i'd try to guess and re-send it (doing my best) :)
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You pay a Bill? hehehehe

Well, there's a lot of whacky stuff going on between me and you (or the rest of you, from the production house)... check your sent PM's and you'll get an idea (LOL)), so no worries, it's an old PM, too.

But man, it's getting really freaky talking to more than one of you with the same login!

Cheers!
 
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taubkin said:
hehehe, it's just that when we are talking about cameras, we are talking about cameras, tools. Nt the art we do with them. Of course, a camera is not the most important thing in a film. But why not talk about them and see their capabilities. Looking at numbers we can come to objective conclusions sometimes (instead of the subjective - "I prefer the images of Kodak 5205 over Kodak 5218" - I'm not implying those films are the same!). Sometimes we can say, "hey, for a greesncreen shot, or for motion tracking work, or for this texture you are imagining, the tool "X" is more appropriate. Anyway, among a bunch of techhead cinematographers, I have to say it's more useful to talk about that than discuss who liked Manoel de Oliveira's last film.
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sure.. :D i'd like to see some skillful cinematographers there.. eheheh..

You pay a Bill? hehehehe
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i said: who pays the bills.. not myself.. but unfortunately or maybe not i've been contributing there..

Well, there's a lot of whacky stuff going on between me and you (or the rest of you, from the production house)... check your sent PM's and you'll get an idea (LOL)), so no worries, it's an old PM, too.

But man, it's getting really freaky talking to more than one of you with the same login!
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yes, specially when the account is definitely highjacked.. that girl is a tremendous vulcan.. eheh..
 
Stephen Williams said:
I my well be a Red Customer, I can afford one cash no finance required, I have PL mounted lenses, follow focus, matte boxes & sticks ready to go. I just need to test one first.

Stephen
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be welcome.. i'm sure it'd be more useful see you as red client than everything else..

gordon, later we'll arrange our bills together.. :)
 
Seemingly, the dynamic range is also subjective, in the sense that the user will define where the acceptable noise level is.

Excuse the ignorance, but is it possible to post characteristic curves for R, G, B in digital - as if is with a hypothetical colour negative ? For me, I'd like to see how parallel they are...

Red sure has a lot on their plate - making Spike available and viable, tweaking the sensor, writing code, rewriting code, shooting various footage, reshooting test footage, posting on forums, reveal the huge changes -hint, hint- and on and on. Just make sure you spare the time to buy some eggnog, trim the tree (do you trim Palm trees out there ? ) and sing a couple carols. And try not to buy your Christmas presents at the 7-11 because you're working too hard ("ahhh, thanks for the slim jims Dad", "Gee, I really needed a car air freshner"):beer:


RED#'s cautiously optimistic
 
Maybe we need this er....dare i say disappointment. Perhaps it stops us from believing the red camera is going to be better than "anything else out there" that is digital.

Do these tests show that neither of the digital cameras can equal film?

The Canon XLH1 10 Stops in highlights. That from a prosumer camcorder!!

IMHO Stephen Williams has indeed been our devils advocate. I think he is professional and informative in his views on red and about the qualities of film. We need MORE like him as it keeps our feet on the ground.

Michael
 
mike the beginner said:
Maybe we need this er....dare i say disappointment.

Michael
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If you consider it a disappointment, then the only error we have made is opening up our development process along the way before we are finished. We, along with David Stump, have stated that there is more latitude in our sensor. We just needed a bit of time characterize our sensor to find it. And we have. What is missing from the CML post is that all these cameras were tested differently. The only fair thing to do is a side by side test with adult supervision. We also suggest including resolution and noise testing at the same time. The only thing we will hold out for is finishing our development. Then... bring it on.

Jim
 
I don't know how tha 8 1/2 stop conclusion was arrived at but if youv'e seen any of the Red footage projected, it seems obvious to me there is more lattitude there than 8+ stops. How you choose to expose has just as much to do with how much detail is there. For instance if I chose to expose a very contrasty scene right in the middle for 18% gray, not protecting my highlights, then I may get 8 stops of detail but will have sarificed my highs and my shadows will barely be below dark grey.
 
If you consider it a disappointment, then the only error we have made is opening up our development process along the way before we are finished. We, along with David Stump, have stated that there is more latitude in our sensor. We just needed a bit of time characterize our sensor to find it. And we have. What is missing from the CML post is that all these cameras were tested differently. The only fair thing to do is a side by side test with adult supervision. We also suggest including resolution and noise testing at the same time. The only thing we will hold out for is finishing our development. Then... bring it on.

Jim
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Thanks Jim and yes i agree it is a bit unfair. I suppose there will always be two sides to the opening up your development but the vast majority of us are pleased you have done so, We are with you till the end:happy:

Maybe i am picking this up wrong? Highlights is massively important to me since i will be filming in and around water a lot. The Canon XLH1 was well received when it came out but if i recall it was slated in it's highlights area.

Now i see a test that has produced more lattitude from the canon than the red. Even allowing for a bit more lattitude from the red..well it is kinda surprising that this camera is up there with possibly the best digital cameras out there. :Drogar-Shock(DBG):

Michael
 
Michael... until these cameras are all tested at the same time and under the same conditions, I think it is prudent not to draw any conclusions from what you see in that chart. There is no backup to the testing or reporting methodology. And in the real world, the results don't match up with what we have all seen with our own eyes.

Jim
 
Hi all!

Just wanted to let the Red team know that even though there might be some skeptics along the way commenting on the development, for every one of them I guess there are many many more, including myself, who are very optimistic and glad to be able to almost be part of the development.

Summary: Please continue to be open, post images and renderings of the camera and accessories. I think we are many that trust you, we are aware that you cannot achieve miracles all the time, but we do know that at least you are trying! And you will have my respect no matter if you succeed or not.

Sincerely

Marcus, Sweden

One of the quiet observers of the red development.
 
Jannard said:
Stephen... you have stated several times on other boards that you have asked to test our camera and have been turned down (even though the camera is not done). You seem to intimate that there must be something wrong with our camera and that is the only reason why we won't let you test it. I'm just curious why you believe that we should let you test the camera instead of someone here in California, like David Stump? And what makes you believe you are best suited to test it above all others? Or do you think we should open up and let anyone test it that asks? If that was the case, you would be number 788 in line.

Jim
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Hi Jim,

This goes back to the evening of 13 September when I asked you which camera would have a greater DR, The Red or a Viper. You were sure the Red would win. I had been testing the Viper the previous week and did not share your opinion. I asked to test your camera and you refused.

AFAIK David Stump had not been asked to test the camera at that time. I don't think 1/2 stop exposure brackets are very difficult, I have done this many times.

FWIW David Stump has made some comments on CML that are worth reading.

I have never thought there is anything wrong with your sensor. I will happily wait my turn till 778 to test the camera and hopefully we can have that beer your offered!

I fully understand your project is work in progress, hopefully you will end up with a camera with a better DR than a D20.

My best wishes

Stephen
 
As I see it the whole point of an open development policy is to get feedback and input along the way. At times that input is positive and at times negative but hopefully it all serves to give us a better product at the end of the development cycle, one which is more appropriate to our needs. I think it is important to bear in mind that this is all work in progress and nobody should be coming to any conclusions about RedOne at this stage. The only tests that really count are independent tests using the finished product and they can't happen until the product exists.

It is healthy to have a bit of cheerleading alongside more critical analysis, that keeps people upbeat and motivated. But the critical analysis is really important, ultimately that is the point of the development process being open, not so we can all say everything is great all the time.

I think it was a good decision to invite David Stump to shoot some tests on the development rig, overall the results we have seen have been very encouraging and I am sure that the finished product will be an improvement on the development prototype, conventionally that would be what one would expect.

Martin
 
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