Questions about the HMC150

[timgray]

I am ready to buy a new HD camera. I'm done with Tapes after losing $2500.00 because of a hidden strong magnetic field in the floor of a rental van ruining the tapes from a paid event. I have shot with Canon XL1's, XL2's, GL1's, GL2's, and am used to the incredible OIS that canon has. I also shoot with JVC cameras and hate the useless OIS they have.

Here's my question. How is the OIS on the HMC150? I know that Canon's OIS is the top of the line, but if the Panny can get even 3/4 of the way to what a canon OIS can do I'm sold. I was considering the JVC HM100 until I saw that it's nothing more than their prosumer HD7 with all the problems fixed and a XLR input. And all the footiage I can find online are either shot without OIS on or shows that the JVC OIS is worthless.

My shooting technique can get a steadicam look when shooting with a GL2 handheld.. Can this be done with the HMC150?

Also does the HMC150 require Panny SDHC cards? what are the problems with using other brand cards?

Finally, all the specs say that the HMC150 has a lower resolution than the JVC and the Sony.. does the HMC150 shoot good enough for broadcast? I have shot some footage for the Discovery channel and PBS with Sony HDV, will the AVCHD quality out of this camera be acceptable for networks?

Anyone got any solid hates or dislikes about the camera? I'm looking for the dirt to compare to the nothing but glowing "it's the holy grail" reviews online.

My choice for this camera is price, $3100 right now cheap enough to not worry about damage if the job is paying, ability to use a zoom controller so it's easy to use on a figrig, and real pro features unlike the almost there features of the JVC lineup.

 

[Barry_Green]

Here's my question. How is the OIS on the HMC150?

It works, but it's not as effective as the Canon. You'd have to try it for yourself to know if it meets your standards.

Also does the HMC150 require Panny SDHC cards? what are the problems with using other brand cards?

It doesn't "require" anything other than Class 4. You can use any card. However, not all cards are created equal, and there are many reports of better-quality cards and worse-quality cards out there. As well as there being reports of ripoff/knockoff cards being sold on ebay. Fakes. So if the reason you're looking at a new camera is for reliability of footage and not losing footage, I would highly recommend that you stick with a premium brand. For my dollars that means Lexar, Panasonic, and SanDisk. Look around the forum and you'll see what other people's experiences have been with cards such as Transcend and AData.

Finally, all the specs say that the HMC150 has a lower resolution than the JVC and the Sony.. does the HMC150 shoot good enough for broadcast?

The HMC150 produces an image that has about 1440x810 worth of detail. Is it broadcastable? Of course it is. In fact, its twin brother the HPX170 (the exact same camera head, but a different recording format) is the main handheld camera for all NBC News o&o stations.

I have shot some footage for the Discovery channel and PBS with Sony HDV, will the AVCHD quality out of this camera be acceptable for networks?

That's up to the individual networks to decide, each has its own standards. Discovery HD, for example, doesn't allow commissioned programs to be shot on any HDV or 1/3" camcorder, so the HMC150 would probably not qualify. But there's a big difference between commissioned programs and programs that they buy/air. I'm sure you'll find many stories of programs from HDV airing on each of those networks, and the HMC150's codec is far superior to HDV. But it is a 1/3" camera and even the mighty HPX370, the king of 1/3" cameras, may not qualify for unlimited acquisition on those networks.

Anyone got any solid hates or dislikes about the camera? I'm looking for the dirt to compare to the nothing but glowing "it's the holy grail" reviews online.

If you're seeing the "holy grail" reviews, there's a reason... :thumbsup: The only knock that I can think of at all against it is that it isn't as hyper-crisp as some other cameras, including its less-expensive brother the HMC40. Other than that it's pretty darn fantastic.

 

[timgray]

Thanks for your experience in the camera Barry. I know a lot of networks "officially" don't approve of HDV but a lot of shows are shot with it as a B camera or accept footage that they did not get and need in that format. I was wondering if anyone had any problems getting things accepted.

Locally the TV stations are still in the dark ages. One ABC affiliate still shooting DigiBeta. So anything I offer has been higher quality (as in video format) than their shooting teams produce.

I'm wondering if there is a typical failure to the camera? The Canon DV and HDV cameras have very delicate tape transports. One light thunk on a XL2 and you have to send it in for repair as the tape wont align with the head reliably anymore. That's why I'm all excited about going tapeless. No tape failures or transport worries.

 

[ikander]

I am ready to buy a new HD camera. I'm done with Tapes after losing $2500.00 because of a hidden strong magnetic field in the floor of a rental van ruining the tapes from a paid event. I have shot with Canon XL1's, XL2's, GL1's, GL2's, and am used to the incredible OIS that canon has. I also shoot with JVC cameras and hate the useless OIS they have.

Here's my question. How is the OIS on the HMC150? I know that Canon's OIS is the top of the line, but if the Panny can get even 3/4 of the way to what a canon OIS can do I'm sold. I was considering the JVC HM100 until I saw that it's nothing more than their prosumer HD7 with all the problems fixed and a XLR input. And all the footiage I can find online are either shot without OIS on or shows that the JVC OIS is worthless.

My shooting technique can get a steadicam look when shooting with a GL2 handheld.. Can this be done with the HMC150?

Also does the HMC150 require Panny SDHC cards? what are the problems with using other brand cards?

Finally, all the specs say that the HMC150 has a lower resolution than the JVC and the Sony.. does the HMC150 shoot good enough for broadcast? I have shot some footage for the Discovery channel and PBS with Sony HDV, will the AVCHD quality out of this camera be acceptable for networks?

Anyone got any solid hates or dislikes about the camera? I'm looking for the dirt to compare to the nothing but glowing "it's the holy grail" reviews online.

My choice for this camera is price, $3100 right now cheap enough to not worry about damage if the job is paying, ability to use a zoom controller so it's easy to use on a figrig, and real pro features unlike the almost there features of the JVC lineup.

For the price point, you're not going to find a better prosumer camera.

What Barry says is true...they're sharper cameras out there. But, the HMC-150 is a great little workhouse. Beautiful colors (gotta dig that Panny mojo) as well as super-long record times to cheap media, makes it a winning combination.

And, as far as I'm concerned, I'd take AVCHD over HDV any day of the week..

 

[Exact]

OK - I could give it glowing reports, but since you asked.....

My biggest gripe would be the LCD. It's certainly very usable, indeed I use it all the time , but it would be nice if it were a little sharper. Having the info displayed outside the normal 16x9 display (e.g. time code, aperture settings etc) is nice. It would however be nice to have some other overlay alternatives. I tend to leave mine on action safe all the time, but others would be nice.

My second gripe would be that the focus assist does not have an assignable color (e.g. red) for the highlight edges, so it's sometimes not as easy as I would like to get manual focus as quickly as I would like.

Autofocus is pretty much useless for the kind of work I do, but I know other people use it all day long.

The internal microphones are 'adequate' at best - I use wireless mics, shotgun mics or other (e.g. Shure SM58) mics via the XLR plug-in for important stuff.

The audio controls can be a bit fiddly when you are in a hurry.

Other than that, I quite like it I have 4 of them, so they can't be all bad

FYI I use a mixture of class 4 and class 6 verbatim cards (all 16GB). The only times I've had card failures (twice) were user error.

 

[Mike Harvey]

I'll second Exact on the LCD... it really sucks. I hope the next generation in a few years uses the fabled HPX300/370 LCD. But beyond that, I really have no complaints, at least not for a $3,200 camera.

 

[Denwa]

SD LCD and View finder are drawbacks. EVF Detail that was red or blue would make things a hell of a lot easier when trying to focus, especially run and gun.

Detail wise, I find that most of the "sharper" cams are too damn sharp anyway. In fact I turn the detail down on the HMC150 (detail -3 coring +3)

Most networks can be "fooled" by just delivering in whatever format they are demanding.

Our local news station still shoot on DVCPRO25 SD shoulder cams.

Sandisc Extreme, ATP Promax are resin encapsulated, industrial strength cards (high and low temp, 1000g shock rating etc.) I believe the Pansonic Gold series are thas well but they do not list them as industrial. They do list the temp rating and it is the same so I suspect they are as well.

I've had cheaper cards crack on me. So I now use the ATP Promax cards as they are the best bang for the industrial strength buck.

 

[timgray]

One thing I forgot..

How about the dreaded purple fringing? when recording a high contrast bright scene does it have a lot of the purple like some of the earlier HDV 3CCD cameras have?

I cant fond any raw example footage online of high contrast or worst case. Everything is on Vimeo or Youtube which is 100% worthless because it's compressed down so hard all detail is really lost.

 

[Exact]

It's not something I have a problem with. I'm often at (say) the entrance to a church where outside is completely white (blown out) and dark church doors (and bride's white dress) are correctly exposed. I don't seen any fringing at all - though I suppose you could induce it if you try.

 

[Interface]

I am very satisfied and don't regret buying 2 HMCs a slightest bit.
I will point out only few not so great things about HMC.
HMC might look a bit softer if you are used to super sharp image. I find that quite nice though.
LCD is poor, focusing requires some time. My cameraman that has 15 years of TV fast pace experience with all kind of cameras, mainly canon, has mastered focusing with HMC150, he now nails it every time, but had trouble with it when we just got these cameras. So, I guess it is not some flaw that cannot be overcome.

Still, I am seriously considering buying small 7" HD monitor and mount it on HMC.

I only seriously dislike one thing. Manual focus indicator can be set to show distance, but these numbers are approximate - so to say useless. Even the camera manual advises not to rely on that. When you put a bad LCD in, at least compensate for it with something nice, like true focus distance indicator.


When we did our last commercial, image straight from the cam was so good that I was tempted not to touch it at all in post. Everyone in the crew and everyone I showed the raw footage to was impressed.

I don't know if the AVCHD codec might pose a problem for you, since many people are complaining. Codec is great, very advanced and reliable - but a pain to work with. You will need fast computers.

 

[Denwa]

I've found the focus distance numbers to be fairly accurate. Odd.

 

[Exact]

Still, I am seriously considering buying small 7" HD monitor and mount it on HMC.

I bought a monitor for a couple of reasons. firstly it does help with focusing, although it would be really nice if you could export the assist patch on the HDMI too (come on Panasonic - it can't be that hard!). The second reason is so that I can monitor a remote (unmanned) camera by sticking the monitor on a stand out of sight to other people, but so I can see what it's doing.

I've found the focus distance numbers to be fairly accurate. Odd.

Me too. We often get our tape measure out and verify things prior to a shoot, and it's usually pretty accurate until you get past 35-40 feet. After that all bets are off and you need to use the focus assist. Less than 20 feet I can simply make a note of distances and rack focus using the distance scale without too much trouble.

 

[Interface]

I've found the focus distance numbers to be fairly accurate.

From the HMC150 User manual:

"• Use the mm/feet or mm/m display only as a general guideline since it is not entirely accurate."

I have not tested it, that is true, but usualy user manuals don't make things look worse then they are, if not other way around. Either way, it is not something you can completely trust.

 

[ptfigg]

Detail wise, I find that most of the "sharper" cams are too damn sharp anyway. In fact I turn the detail down on the HMC150 (detail -3 coring +3)

I do this as well. In fact I was going to start a new thread about it. Before buying my HMC-150 I spent allot of time reviewing sample footage. The examples that impressed me most were shot with Detail settings at -3 and a few as low as -6.

-paul.

 

[timgray]

anyone have any good links to raw sample footage? Not compressed youtube or Vimeo but the actual MTS files?

I'd love to find some that I can look at closely.

 

[Allen Ellis]

http://www.vontraining.net/viewtopic.php?t=496

 

[accelv]

[QUOTE

What Barry says is true...they're sharper cameras out there. But, the HMC-150 is a great little workhouse.



Have you tried shooting with the "SPARK" preset for sharper images?

 

[Everts]

One thing I forgot..

How about the dreaded purple fringing? when recording a high contrast bright scene does it have a lot of the purple like some of the earlier HDV 3CCD cameras have?

I cant fond any raw example footage online of high contrast or worst case. Everything is on Vimeo or Youtube which is 100% worthless because it's compressed down so hard all detail is really lost.

it 's acceptable .....saw Karate Kid and it looked the same ...scene where he's looking at the dragon lady .

 

[NEEL]

Finally, all the specs say that the HMC150 has a lower resolution than the JVC and the Sony.. does the HMC150 shoot good enough for broadcast? I have shot some footage for the Discovery channel and PBS with Sony HDV, will the AVCHD quality out of this camera be acceptable for networks?

On my recent documentary I used the HMC151 with a nanoflash to get a 4:2:2 signal, which is required by some European broadcasters (those who still accept 1/3" camcorders). This was cheaper than buying a HPX 171 with 4 hours of cardspace on P2 and also faster to save on disc than P2. So I have the nanoflash signal going to a CF-card and an AVCHD backup on my HMC which was quite helpful. AVCHD holds up pretty well qualitywise, if you mix it with the 4:2:2 there won't be that much of a noticeable difference IMHO.

Anyone got any solid hates or dislikes about the camera? I'm looking for the dirt to compare to the nothing but glowing "it's the holy grail" reviews online.

Yes, I got one: The microfon holder is crab. It's too big in size for a MKH 416 and attached to deep on the body of the cam. Basically I worked with external sound recording, but there are always documentary wise interesting situations with your protagonist coming up just after the sound guy went to toilet or when the room is to small for two persons. These are the moments I loved to have the MKH 416 on the cam... I forgot to check this at home and had to create a semipro looking paperthing to give the MKH 416 a hold. Since the holder was to deep, there are some shots where the MKH 416 literally fell into the frame. Later I attached a strange looking selfmade metal prolongation which lifted the mic holder some inches. Didn't look pro either, but worked :-

What I also felt to be difficult was to manually control the iris during bright sunlight without closing it accidentally. This might sound strange, but it happend quite often to me during run and gun situations in bright sunlight when I switched on the ND64 and tried to cope with the zebras. There is no friction or something to warn you, if you turn the iris-ring a little to much, it will close and your shot fades to black... OK, this will happen on every pro cam, so it would just be nice if Panasonic worked on this little detail IMHO.

Well, you see this are minor issues compared to the actual quality of the cam. I would say the HMC 151 indeed is a very brillant workhorse. Its not to heavy, has got a very good lens (I never needed to use any other wideangel) and is small enough to travel with - just perfect for documentaries

 

[8string]

I have had my 150 for 6 months now, and just finished a documentary (not yet released, due to release in mid July), with 30 hours of interviews, in all sorts of conditions. So my thoughts are that for the price, you won't get a better camera. However, that said, the viewfinder is subpar when compared to, say the JVC HM700 (at a lot more money). It really could be better. I've also experienced having the iris go to black on me during run and gun. Agravating. Dual SD cards are the one thing to add, if adding only one. I constantly worry about losing a days shoot. I too use the "spark" setting, much closer to 'real' for me.

I have gone to an external monitor, but don't always use it. It's too much of a hassle for my kind of work. The difference between the LCD and the actual footage is really the worse thing about the camera. I cannot trust that the exposure is going to be 'right'. I've often underexposed a 1/2 stop or more. So I compensate by slightly overexposing and then playing back on camera a slice of footage to see if I was right. This is really a pain. The ext. monitor fixes that problem, but at a cost in weight, and agravation.

The built in mics are ok, passable, but I almost always add a shotgun, or some other mic usually through a mixpre mixer to avoid touching the camera and it's useless audio adjustments. (there has to be a better way, I'd prefer small pots with click settings!). So the wonderful surround sound almost never gets to post...sigh...

The lens sharpness is great! The FOV is spectacular at wide angle, and I favor the 150 over my Canon t2i (550d) for that kind of field use. But I do find myself using the Rebel more these days than the 150 for standard 'daily' shooting, like a video log. Having the DOF on the T2i is just something that you don't want to lose when you have it in your toolkit.

I transcode everything whether going to FCP or Vegas (using Neoscene) so I've just accepted the AVCHD which I both like and hate. Wish Panny would step up and put on a 4:2:2 codec on this thing! The comparisons between my Rebel at about $1500 complete (ok, so maybe a bit more with a couple of lens and ....) and the 150 shows that for short burst shooting the Rebel can hold it's own against the smaller sensors in the 150. I think that the DSLR world is going to continue to put price pressure on the 150, as I work around the lack of good audio with a Zoom, etc. If Canon gets it's act together with a 'video' version of the 7d or Rebel, it will be a hard game for Panny.

So for an all around video camera, with all the benefits of XLRs, good ergonomics, the whole kit, I still would probably buy this camera today. If I had a lot more money to spend, I'd be looking seriously at the JVC 700 if I edited in FCP all the time, a friend has one and it's a great (heavy) camera. Also the newer Sony EX is fabulous, I believe true 'broadcast quality' but that's also up closer to $10k. Interchangeable lens, etc. Not something I would buy for my use at that price. My guess is that 'broadcast quality' means more if you show up on a shoot where people see you as opposed to shooting it yourself and bringing it to the station. They are probably just trying to weed out all us high end 'amateurs' (G). I think that the 150 is really an "industrial" camera, more likely to be classified in the world of corporate shooting than 'broadcast'. It's target market of serious amateurs, small production houses for web distribution, weddings, etc. is a great fit.

Heck, if you don't like it, you can sell it in and usually recoup most of your cost.

As a last 'shameless plug' you can view a bunch of shorts I did in the last six months using the 150, the musicians at Wintergrass were almost all handheld, wild sound from the room speakers captured with a shotgun mic, no field mixer. I think they are perfectly acceptable for the advertising they were used for. The Brazilian musicians were shot on tripod with feeds directly off the board into the XLRs. The Oyster Training was with my Canon, and there is some low light comparisons with the Canon and 150 over a campfire.The Oyster documentary can be compared with the earlier one I did of the Environmental lobby day done totally with the 150 as a run and gun exercise two weeks after buying the camera. It is awaiting narration for use next January. I'm happy with all of them for what they are. Nothing special. Just a days work.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=8stringthing