FS7: Question to RED, or higher end camera owners on their FS7 interest.

Lenilenapi said:
Dennis - where is that test you did comparing them again. Were those just charts or real live shots. I'd love to see the difference between the so-called "Sony look" and what you can get with the same gamma going through different color space. BTW - I feel I've been able to get good color for years from Sony but I'm not opposed to improving .

Lenny
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Hi Lenny,

I shot charts which DVinfo published here: http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acqui...ng-cineei-mode-in-custom-mode-on-the-f55.html But then afterwards I took Sony's official 3D LUTs and applied them and compared the differences, those images with vectorscope can be found http://www.hingsberg.com/index.php/2015/04/sony-3d-luts-test/

Art Adams shot real shots and provided examples published by DVinfo here: http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acquisition/sonyxdcam/sony_sgamut_vs_sgamut3.html


Sony told me no more than 3 weeks ago that they do not intend at all to bring the newer color science to custom mode.
 
After shooting my feature in Cine Ei Slog3, my trusty HVX viewfinder cable went out and I was faced with using the FS7 for everyday jobs.Other than dropping from 4K to 1080P, I decided to keep the settings the same and just burn in Rec 709a LUT. So far it's working great and I now have an image with contrast in the viewfinder to monitor, even in S & Q.
 
Dennis, I found both yours and Art's efforts valuable, but I'm not shooting charts and frankly in most cases just don't care about the boats, water and sky that Art found so offensive.
I'm interested in flesh tones and I sometimes find situations where shooting in Custom is very attractive - mixed lighting, low light or when I want to warm or cool an image down from a preset.
I often shoot interviews for example and do those in Std gamma because I hate compression on the face.
I do like faces in 709A and have assumed its because of the desaturation in facial highlights, but have not been convinced that its a difference in color science I'm seeing . It might very well be.
I've never even bothered to test Cine EI without 709A though, so I need to shoot a test that only compares the color gamuts without the 709A saturation rolloff.

Thanks for all the discussion nether turning me on to this issue so clearly.

Interestingly I still don't get why Basspig would shoot Cine EI Hypergamma LUT instead of an extended LC709A LUT ,. but maybe I'll like it. Also interesting that Sam Morgan Moore a professed hater of the "Sony Look" shoots everything in Custom SLog3 thus using old color science. He swears by it.
 
I'm not one for shooting charts either, but there does come a time when shooting them can be used to highlight specific differences between cameras, lenses, or in this case modes within the same camera. That's the only reason I shot these color charts - to see what was really going on "under the hood".

Having said that I agree that skin tones are probably the most important "test" of all.

With matrix turned off in custom mode, as was discovered back in our F3 days, it will yield really good results that probably can't be argued much against cineEI modes new color science, or even a good customized matrix like Doug and a few others here are able to create with really nice results.

Also look back to many previous generations of CineAlta and even non-CineAlta cameras which used this "old Sony color science" yet were used in major motion picture films, documentaries, and tons of TV programming. So maybe it's all what you do with it in post. Well actually I'm quite certain it is.

I hope to repeat my color science tests one day with actual models to observe skin tones, with and without grading, and with and without LUTs but can't manage to find the time these days.
 
I agree completely about the value of charts and use resolution charts extensively with lenses - your tests with color charts were very enlightening.

Also agree on time management conundrum - is there a planet with a 36 hour day or one where you don't need sleep? How does Art find the time.
 
Viddovation said:
You're right insofar as I wasn't understanding that you were very specifically talking about wide color gammut. You initiially referred to "color space" and that phrase itself can be applied to a number of different elements, which I described accurately enough, prior to you being precise about exactly which component you were concerned about. So really, I'd say it's less an issue of my knowledge base than of there being key terms that can refer to multiple distinct things, and a lack of clear delineation in that conversation.

So, apologies for misunderstanding what you were discussing - you weren't exceedingly clear.

Luckily for me I own an F35 and a couple F23s, so when I want to shoot with the wider gammut color filters and processing, that's what I'll use.

The FS7 is still a budget "right gear for the price" camera, so I'm not surprised they hold back some features from the F65/F55/F5.
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You should be in politics :) You could have saved The Donalds butt

Not vague really..I wasn't talking about wide color gamut..I just said custom mode was in REC 709 color space.. which it is.. your reply was also not vague.. your flat out wrong.. :)... color space is quite specific ,what do you mean it can be applied to a number of different elements.. you talked about gamma curves and color sampling .. thats not color space..

"You're hardly the only person I've run into who thinks this, but it's flat out wrong.

Like a great many other Sony cameras, the PXW-FS7 offers a variety of "Standard" gamma curves in it's custom paint mode, of which R709 is merely one option. Additionally, the Custom mode offers multiple hypergammas, as well as use of the Slog3 curve (possibly SLog 2 on newer firmware)."

Sometimes all the other people are right and you are wrong..

Your playing a losing hand here.. you quoted the gamma curve REC 709.. as being the REC 709 color space.. its not its just a gamma curve..sampling ..monitors not excepting signals.. all sorts of confusion.. you don't have to make excuses to me or anyone.. . we learn by being wrong .. put the effort into study..
 
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Donny 123 said:
You should be in politics :) You could have saved The Donalds butt

Not vague really..I wasn't talking about wide color gamut..I just said custom mode was in REC 709 color space.. which it is.. your reply was also not vague.. your flat out wrong.. :)... color space is quite specific ,what do you mean it can be applied to a number of different elements.. you talked about gamma curves and color sampling .. thats not color space..

"You're hardly the only person I've run into who thinks this, but it's flat out wrong.

Like a great many other Sony cameras, the PXW-FS7 offers a variety of "Standard" gamma curves in it's custom paint mode, of which R709 is merely one option. Additionally, the Custom mode offers multiple hypergammas, as well as use of the Slog3 curve (possibly SLog 2 on newer firmware)."

Sometimes all the other people are right and you are wrong..

Your playing a losing hand here.. you quoted the gamma curve REC 709.. as being the REC 709 color space.. its not its just a gamma curve..sampling ..monitors not excepting signals.. all sorts of confusion.. you don't have to make excuses to me or anyone.. . we learn by being wrong .. put the effort into study..
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Clearly I misunderstood what you were discussing. A great many people have referred to "color space" with far less specificity and accuracy than you have. I misunderstood the issue, and therefore my statements were in regards to gammas and LUTs. Within what I was discussing, I beleive my points were accurate. They were, however, not on topic, due to my initial misunderstanding. So, I defintely defer to you and Dennis on this point. It's not my area of expertise, now that we've honed on what's being discussed.

So yes, I'm flat out wrong because I misunderstood the point of conversation. In the context I intended them, my points would have been relevant.

Color space may not *accurately* be applicable to multiple distinct things - perhaps you are right there - but if so, it is frequently used in a less accurate way by laypeople, who are not as clever as you.

Consider me informed.
 
Viddovation said:
Clearly I misunderstood what you were discussing. A great many people have referred to "color space" with far less specificity and accuracy than you have. I misunderstood the issue, and therefore my statements were in regards to gammas and LUTs. Within what I was discussing, I beleive my points were accurate. They were, however, not on topic, due to my initial misunderstanding. So, I defintely defer to you and Dennis on this point. It's not my area of expertise, now that we've honed on what's being discussed.

So yes, I'm flat out wrong because I misunderstood the point of conversation. In the context I intended them, my points would have been relevant.

Color space may not *accurately* be applicable to multiple distinct things - perhaps you are right there - but if so, it is frequently used in a less accurate way by laypeople, who are not as clever as you.

Consider me informed.
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No need to throw the toys out of the pram.. the only clever thing is not to dig yourself into a hole because you were wrong about something..and actually learn what color space is about... I,d been shooting for years with ENG and had no idea about it.. Ive learnt plenty on camera forums and been wrong many times about things I thought I knew and I didnt ..had it totally screwed up.. do need to put spin on your answer .. . a little dent to your ego thats all.. we have all been through that.. color space is color space.. it is specific.. I wasn't vague in the least.. . custom mode = Rec 709.. you said I was wrong.. so I answered your post.. thats all..in the same position I have actually thanked the person who has put me right.. just a thought for the future ..
 
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Donny, With all due respect I was learning things on this thread until you got your hackles up about someone not apologizing properly to you about being incorrect. There's no need to lecture anyone personally here unless they are really out of line and no one was, in fact quite the contrary. Personal spats can destroy a professional forum and drive the best people out. Lets keep it all respectful, collegial and confined to the subject matter.
 
Lenilenapi said:
Moore a professed hater of the "Sony Look" shoots everything in Custom SLog3 thus using old color science. He swears by it.
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I dont really hate the Sony look - it just doesnt work for me*

I think SlogEI looks nicest.. but you are locked at (debatably) 1000 iso - Id shoot SlogEI in a studio or lit shoot over custom.

Custom Slog offers acceptable results up to 8000 ISO, and handles higlights well - yes the 'gamut issue' probably lowers the accuracy of colour rendiition by 5% over EI

For most of my work a 2000-8000 camera is more useful than a 1000 ISO camera with 5% better colour.

It is a trade off.

*As for 'the sony look', well I was interested watching the Brazil world cup with some stadia with huge contrast ratios - the team had obviously set up a look with a huge compression of highlights and a large kick to the shadows - because as the camera panned from deep shadow to full sun the whole ratio needed to be seen. It looked horrid, but was completely broadcast ready and enabled the viewers to understand the play of the match as it moved from shadow to full sun. The sony look was the only look that would have 'worked' in this harsh live to broadcast environment. The sony look is genius for a situation like this where having some thing that looks horrid is better than having something you just cannot see at all.
 
Donny 123 said:
.. . custom mode = Rec 709..
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I'm not following the argument. If you're shooting Slog3 in custom mode you're using the S-Gamut3 which has nothing to do with REC709.

Gamut3 is a massive gamut that extends well beyond human vision that looks over saturated when uncorrected looking through a REC709 colorspace. Gamut3.cine is a much smaller gamut which looks much more pleasing to the eye when viewed through a REC709 colorspace.

As far as I know the SGamut3.cine is close to a particular film stock gamut. I expect there's a bit of clever matrixing going on behind the scenes too.
 
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I would guess that everything is any of us see is 709 (or SRGB?) unless anyone here is on a 2020 cinema display or DCI or whatever it is called.

Simply if you don't present a monitor with a 709 signal it wont work - just like taking the composite video out of my gopro and plugging the cable into my SDI monitor wont work.

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So the '709' process needs to be broken apart.

The spec simply represents black to white in seven stops - that is the pipe that we push our 12 stop cameras down by reducing contrast - we then add the contrast back in the post process (or present washed out crap as have become the fashion!) in post somewhere.

Gamut is kind of different but connected.

Our cameras can only record certain colours, our monitors can only display certain colours (and brigtnesses of them)

For example in the real world we can damage our eyes by looking at the sun - no monitor can represent that true brightness - monitors do not (thankfully!) have the power to burn holes in our retina.

So representing a bright sun via a monitor is a (good) compromise, similarly our eyes and perceive huge and subtle ranges of hue and (particularly) comprehend highly saturated colours (say a builders flouro jacket in full sun) that could not be represented on a monitor.

So we have the real world - many many colours and intensities and hues.

Then we have what the camera can capture (the gaumt) - quite a few colours and intensities and hues.

And then we have what the monitor can show - less colours and intensities and hues.

The camera can capture more colours and intensities and hues than the 709 monitor can show.

So now we hit a technical wall..

OK Ive collected (with the camera) these unshowable colours - what to do?

OK Ill write an algorithm to move 'unshowable' colours to showable colours (colour A moved to screen output B)

Now that is where Slog3/Custom falls over. Because the collection gamut is different to the EI gamut - so the algorithm to move from wide gamut to 709 doesnt fit any more

Does that matter? Yes it matters a bit - is it a deal breaker? not to me.

S
 
Lenilenapi said:
Donny, With all due respect I was learning things on this thread until you got your hackles up about someone not apologizing properly to you about being incorrect. There's no need to lecture anyone personally here unless they are really out of line and no one was, in fact quite the contrary. Personal spats can destroy a professional forum and drive the best people out. Lets keep it all respectful, collegial and confined to the subject matter.
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I would have to disagree.. I replied to your post.. James came barreling in with a pretty forthright reply.. I wasn't rude in reply.. I just backed up my claim.. then i was told it was my fault because the question was wrong..?? eh.. i then explained that the question was not vague and very simple.. yeah a dent to his ego .. but I don't think Ive been personally rude.. the aggression has come from James if anywhere.. " as your so clever".. better he hears it here than says something wrong in front of a director ..
 
here is some colour differences (ei vs custom I think) imaged from denis.. The images are overlaid, untouched and with LUTs, yes they are different but will anyone notice?

diffs.jpg
 
Nirv said:
I'm not following the argument. If you're shooting Slog3 in custom mode you're using the S-Gamut3 which has nothing to do with REC709.

I'm not sure why people are referring to Gamuts as colour science.

Gamut3 is a massive gamut that extends well beyond human vision that looks over saturated when uncorrected looking through a REC709 colorspace. Gamut3.cine is a much smaller gamut which looks much more pleasing to the eye when viewed through a REC709 colorspace.

As far as I know the SGamut3.cine is close to a particular film stock gamut. I expect there's a bit of clever matrixing going on behind the scenes too.
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You have to be in Cine EI to have color space S gamut3.. (Slog3 is a log curve) the .cine is a sub set of that gamut..its not meant to look like any specific film stock.. its much smaller and the primaries (the corners of the triangle RGB line up with REC709 triangle .. and the Arri "triangle".. Sgamut3 goes flying off into the green with the corner bent over.. so a lot harder to get back on to the REC triangle unless you really know what your doing.. (I don't ).. the cine color space is still bigger than the cinema space... as you say I wonder who needs the massive Sgamut 3 space.. until Rec 2020.. yes anything you shoot for TV will have to squeezed into REC 709.. they all need grading out side of that.. or burn in a LUT.. instead of setting a matrix in custom.. Dennis knows way more than me about this hopefully he will chime in ..
Footage shot in this way will be very de saturated and lacking in contrast ..it shouldn't be over saturated ..Sgamut .cine will have to be graded for sure.. doesn't look at all pleasing in REC709 :)
 
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Donny 123 said:
I would have to disagree.. I replied to your post.. James came barreling in with a pretty forthright reply.. I wasn't rude in reply.. I just backed up my claim.. then i was told it was my fault because the question was wrong..?? eh.. i then explained that the question was not vague and very simple.. yeah a dent to his ego .. but I don't think Ive been personally rude.. the aggression has come from James if anywhere.. " as your so clever".. better he hears it here than says something wrong in front of a director ..
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Thanks for clarifying the accurate usage of "color space," but I assure you I can handle my clients just fine - I don't need your assistance there.

A very simple Google search will show that color space is very frequently used the same way I initially understood it to be being used here - I don't think there's any need for you to rub salt in when there's plenty of reason for me to have been misinformed in the first place.

If you are offended that one of my early posts used the phrase "flat out wrong" and feel the need to point out the irony repeatedly, consider me properly embarrassed.
 
no intent to embarrass anyone.. . as i said you don't need all the effort for the spin.. "as clever as you" stuff.... . its just a camera forum on the internet.. can be just .. ok got it.. thanks ..

Totally time to move on.. agreed
 
Donny 123 said:
You have to be in Cine EI to have color space S gamut3.. (Slog3 is a log curve) the .cine is a sub set of that gamut..its not meant to look like any specific film stock.. its much smaller and the primaries (the corners of the triangle RGB line up with REC709 triangle .. and the Arri "triangle".. Sgamut3 goes flying off into the green with the corner bent over.. so a lot harder to get back on to the REC triangle unless you really know what your doing.. (I don't ).. the cine color space is still bigger than the cinema space... as you say I wonder who needs the massive Sgamut 3 space.. until Rec 2020.. yes anything you shoot for TV will have to squeezed into REC 709.. they all need grading out side of that.. or burn in a LUT.. instead of setting a matrix in custom.. Dennis knows way more than me about this hopefully he will chime in ..
Footage shot in this way will be very de saturated and lacking in contrast ..it shouldn't be over saturated ..Sgamut .cine will have to be graded for sure.. doesn't look at all pleasing in REC709 :)
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Donny,

I know the difference between a log curve and a gamut and the differences between the primaries so no schooling needed there, I just need confirmation that in Custom mode which Gamut was being used. I'm pretty sure I've read it was SGamut3 on the Sony site but I may be mistaken and you're right it's REC709 primaries being used. If you're CUSTOM mode and you turn MATRIX OFF the camera is recording in SGamut3 is that correct?

BTW, I'm not shooting CUSTOM mode so I'm going by what I've read or incorrectly read.

From Sony docs probably F5/55 (I can't locate ATM), S-Gamut3.cine is indeed based on a particular film stock's GAMUT.

If you have a large gamut and view it through a colorspace with a smaller gamut the image will be more saturated.
 
Morgan, Nice to have you in this discussion since you are a fan of custom. Gotta say though that those charts with overlays do look pretty substantially different to me, especially re flesh tone colors . Evil anyone notice ? I don't know as you need to see real images and see them corrected also. BY the way which one is inside - Custom or CINE EI?

Lenny
 
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