FS7: Question to RED, or higher end camera owners on their FS7 interest.

Nirv said:
I just need confirmation that in Custom mode which Gamut was being used.
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As mentioned in post #132 Custom Mode uses "S-gamut" and CineEI mode uses "S-gamut3.cine" and "S-gamut3". (On the F5/F55 however S-Gamut/SLog2 is an option in CineEI mode in the menu)

Nirv said:
If you're CUSTOM mode and you turn MATRIX OFF the camera is recording in S-Gamut3 is that correct?
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Nope. As mentioned, in Custom Mode there is only one single color space available, and that is "S-gamut".


More Fun:
Sony has said that "S-Gamut3" is very close to camera native color and that it is more accurate than S-gamut. They've also said that S-Gamut3 is much easier for grading - and that S-Gamut3 is less prone to color shifts when converting to other color spaces (Rec709, 2020). Also the big thing I think is that when converting to other color spaces S-Gamut3 is not dependant on the actual color temperature setting, maybe this means less color shifts but I'm not sure.

This is the best Technical Summary on Sony's Slog3/S.Gamut3 you will ever read. Straight from the horses mouth: http://community.sony.com/sony/atta...ry_for_S-Gamut3Cine_S-Gamut3_S-Log3_V1_00.pdf
 
So, if you use Cine EI, and gamma curve S-Log2, what's the color space?

Speaking strictly in regards to gamma (not color space) I've seen where a number of people prefer S-Log2 over S-Log3, so I'm curious what the color space implications are.
 
"If you have a large gamut and view it through a colorspace with a smaller gamut the image will be more saturated."

Yes but after you have manipulated that image into the smaller gamut ..? if you look at the un manipulated image in smaller space .. say REC709 it will be unsaturated and washed out.. you can see that just plugging in your rec 709 monitor when recording Slog in Cine EI.. no ..?
 
Personally, until Rec2020 reaches common use, I think it's madness to shoot anything other than Sgamut3.cine with these cameras, it's just so much more easily (and predictably) wrangled into attractive images.
 
Viddovation said:
So, if you use Cine EI, and gamma curve S-Log2, what's the color space?

Speaking strictly in regards to gamma (not color space) I've seen where a number of people prefer S-Log2 over S-Log3, so I'm curious what the color space implications are.
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Hi James

Here is a link to the sony papers on Slog3/Sgamut (cine) it explains it all.. and in relation to Sgamut/Slog2 and has good diagrams to show the differences between Slog2/3.. they just distribute the data differently ..more data given to shadow,18% gray level is higher.. you need to be in Slog3 to shoot Sgamut3.cine.. which is pretty much becoming the standard these days.. in my experience anyway..

http://community.sony.com/sony/atta...ry_for_S-Gamut3Cine_S-Gamut3_S-Log3_V1_00.pdf
 
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Grug said:
Personally, until Rec2020 reaches common use, I think it's madness to shoot anything other than Sgamut3.cine with these cameras, it's just so much more easily (and predictably) wrangled into attractive images.
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Totally agree.. its bigger than cinema P3 too.. ! I had a shoot the other day they requested Sgamut3.. I emailed 100 times are you sure about it not being .cine.. no they said definitely not cine.. nuts.. ! it was just for TV .. why make their life more difficult.. I think they just didnt know their end..
 
Viddovation said:
So, if you use Cine EI, and gamma curve S-Log2, what's the color space?
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This is a bit tricky, in Custom Mode you select the gamma ie. slog2, slog3, HG, STD, etc.. But in CineEI mode you don't select the gamma like you would in custom mode. In CineEI mode it's pretty well "locked" to slog3, but there is an option under "color space" in the menu when in CineEI mode allowing you to select "S-Gamut/S-Log2".

Unfortunately according to my color tests it doesn't match slog2 in Custom mode which is also S-Gamut, so there is STILL some difference in color between modes even when the same selection is made.


Donny 123 said:
Here is a link to the sony papers on Slog3/Sgamut (cine) it explains it all.. and in relation to Sgamut/Slog2 and has good diagrams to show the differences between Slog2/3.. they just distribute the data differently .. you need to be in Slog3 to shoot Sgamut3.cine.. which is pretty much becoming the standard these days.. in my experience anyway..

http://community.sony.com/sony/atta...ry_for_S-Gamut3Cine_S-Gamut3_S-Log3_V1_00.pdf
Click to expand...

I posted that link 2 posts up and yes, its a great document about sgamut3 but it doesn't at all describe what modes of the camera are tied to which gamut. In my opinion still one of the most confusing and misunderstood things on these cameras.
 
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Well I know the debate rages on.. but I don't see why they have SLog options in custom TBH.. then there would be no confusion ..whats the point.. when you shoot Slog you want to be in Cine EI mode... for LUTS and the color space.. clearly this is what Sony intended too.. so Im surprised they give the Slog option in custom.. lack of NR option in the FS7 is a pain.. you want pre set WB for grading anyway.. but otherwise I cant see why you would shoot Slog in custom in the first place.. shoot HG7 or 8.. same DR as Canons so called LOG anyway.. !
 
Donny 123 said:
Well I know the debate rages on.. but I don't see why they have SLog options in custom TBH.. then there would be no confusion ..whats the point.. when you shoot Slog you want to be in Cine EI mode... for LUTS and the color space.. clearly this is what Sony intended too.. so Im surprised they give the Slog option in custom.. lack of NR option in the FS7 is a pain.. you want pre set WB for grading anyway.. but otherwise I cant see why you would shoot Slog in custom in the first place.. shoot HG7 or 8.. same DR as Canons so called LOG anyway.. !
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Your comments are quite cryptic.
 
Hmmm. So, I had been quite clear on the gamma curve distinctions between Slog 2 and Slog3, and like some other shooters, I far prefer SLog2 in most circumstances. Gamma curve wise, Slog3 gives you an extra 1.5 stops, but SLog2 has far richer midtones, and I find it easier to grade.

Now, with this information about the SGammut3 color space consideration, the LUTs on this page look interesting - take SLog3.cine, and burn in a LUT to convert to SLog2 gamma, while retaining the Sgammut3 color:
http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acquisition/sonyxdcam/sony_sgamut_vs_sgamut3.html
 
This is all very interesting but I still find myself a bit confused as to what really affects the colorimetry of the camera .
Back in the old days when presumably all major video cameras were using the same 709 color gamut ( is that correct usage?) There was a tremendous difference between Ikegami's , Sony's and the Panasonic cameras ( who reportedly stole all Iky's engineers). The Iky and Panny simply looked better and we didn't need an extended gamut to get prettier faces. I used to summarize it as Sony doesn't do brown - its always some combination of green or magenta, while Iky/Panny had nice rich browns which applied to flesh tone.

On top of that all those cameras like our present Custom mode had matrix adjustments that you could alter yourself though you still couldn't really change that fundamental camera colorimetry.
In fact I always wondered whether the cameras has something like an underlying matrix before the adjustable one that set the cameras look. Of course that's coming from a guy with no engineering background at all and its probably a complete misunderstanding.

So what set those cameras looks apart & what sets a Canon apart from a Sony or a RED now . Is it the the gamut, the basic chip, the engineering, the Matrix?
Does that stuff disappear in RAW or is the cameras identity still there?
On top of that now we have the Gamut to deal with, and the "Art Adams or Alexa" type Gamma that desaturates highlights.
Are flesh tones nicer in CINE EI ? If so is it the gamut or the desaturating gamma?
Is the Sony look that people hate because of the cameras colorimetry or because none of those people know how to set up a good matrix. Or is it not color at all but something related to how sharpness is rendered?

Just musing here.

Thoughts?
 
starcentral said:
As mentioned in post #132 Custom Mode uses "S-gamut" and CineEI mode uses "S-gamut3.cine" and "S-gamut3". (On the F5/F55 however S-Gamut/SLog2 is an option in CineEI mode in the menu)



Nope. As mentioned, in Custom Mode there is only one single color space available, and that is "S-gamut".


More Fun:
Sony has said that "S-Gamut3" is very close to camera native color and that it is more accurate than S-gamut. They've also said that S-Gamut3 is much easier for grading - and that S-Gamut3 is less prone to color shifts when converting to other color spaces (Rec709, 2020). Also the big thing I think is that when converting to other color spaces S-Gamut3 is not dependant on the actual color temperature setting, maybe this means less color shifts but I'm not sure.

This is the best Technical Summary on Sony's Slog3/S.Gamut3 you will ever read. Straight from the horses mouth: http://community.sony.com/sony/atta...ry_for_S-Gamut3Cine_S-Gamut3_S-Log3_V1_00.pdf
Click to expand...

Thanks for this post it clears up a lot of questions.

Gamut and SGamut3 have the same gamut according to an Art Adams article on DVInfo so the question is what is the juju the camera doing behind the scenes?

Do you know what is happening when you shoot with CUSTOM mode with MATRIX on? Is that actually changing the gamut in anyway or is just saturating and vectoring colours around?

Thanks
 
Lenilenapi said:
This is all very interesting but I still find myself a bit confused as to what really affects the colorimetry of the camera .
Click to expand...

I guess it is a chain.

1) Filters in front of the sensor (here, EX1 let too much IR through and made blacks brown for example)

These are physically died and colours so clearly different factories/processes will not produce a matching result - the F55/65 boast a better 'CFA' than the 5/FS7

2) The sensor (DR, ability of the sensor to see stuff) - again different factories/processes will perform differently.

and this is where my knowledge goes sketchy.

3) 'Baked in' image conversion 'engine' (might have different settings 'gamut'?) and also do amplification (high ISO)

4) 'Maleable' image conversion 'engine' (matrix look slog knee sharpening NR)

5) Compression


Each element contributes to the character of the camera, 1/2/3 are not user adjustable (apart from changeable front filter (1) on 5/55 and now Red and maybe gamut (3) on sony cameras)

But 4 has had the biggest effect on 'look' and Slog is that 'engine' turned off

So the difference in looks is still there but the biggie (4) is now pretty much a non factor between any camera that shoots log or raw.

====

Overall I would suggest that the race is a pretty flat one, (maybe with Arri ahead due to using less, but bigger, pixels? and Sony ahead on image quality per card space used due to modern compression). All of the 10/12bit cameras from panny/sony/red/arri (BMC/Bolex are years behind on front filtration and use dated industrial chips!) will make great images, your treatment in post is the biggest thing.
Sony are clearly behind on HFR as they only offer 1080 above 60, unlike varicam arri red and phantom
In stills we have top end canons and nikons in the office - are they different? Not enough for me to actually care which one I use!

S
 
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Interesting read! Thanks all for sharing your knowledge, I've learned a lot.
Did s.o. find a custom mode setting that come close to slog3.cine with baked in LC709A?
Arri like desaturated skin tones, desaturated highlights?
 
My limited experience of baked in LUTs is that it is ultimately a doorway to Hell that should be avoided whenever possible, frought with so many worries about everything from DR to exposing properly, whereas in Premiere it literally takes 15secs to apply a lut to a clip or bunch of clips.
 
I second your statement, Ben. Nevertheless I sometimes have a client who grabs the files from the card and goes straight to the edit without grading LUT etc.
 
Clermond said:
I second your statement, Ben. Nevertheless I sometimes have a client who grabs the files from the card and goes straight to the edit without grading LUT etc.
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If they use a modern NLE they should be able to apply a LUT in one click surely?

As an op we need to shoot to make 'one click' look OK and tell them which lut they need (and maybe send it to them)

In stills we would never just shoot jpg professionally and have not done for at least a decade.

Client education is the thing of now.

S
 
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