FS7: Question to RED, or higher end camera owners on their FS7 interest.

Jusgorilla said:
Great convo, dudes.
I'm in a pickle.
Got a fantastic demo F5 + Raw package for a steal about 8 months ago. I love it. Suits me perfectly. I do mainly 99% music videos, based in South Africa.
My clients are from all over africa.
Heres the pickle, 99% of them ask for the red epic, but don't wanna pay the rental. My competition director/owner ops have epics, and I sometimes lose new customers due to not having the epic, and the loyal customers I do have, I have to constantly explain why the F5 + raw is an equal beast to the epic.
I think that at this point of the game in my industry, in Africa, whether I shoot FS7, FS700 raw, Red, F5/55, Alexa, it really doesn't matter. Its now all about the concept, lighting, composition, treatment, talent performance, composition, editing, grading etc etc, and not what camera I use.
But to constantly defend my camera choice is tiring, irritating and downright silly.

This pickle Im in is unique to the music video industry in Africa. Believe it or not, its a BIG industry, and a lot of money going around. Artists pay in dollars, and Im up against other director owner/ops who have epics.
I have loyal clients that understand the proof is in the pudding, and I get good results, but they can't help themselves wanting the epic, still.
Some of them don't even know what the epic looks like, nor do they know there are like 7 different Red cameras. maybe I should put a RED sticker over the sony badge???

The epic is the rockstar of cameras here in Africa. Gotta hand to Jim, Red's marketing has been stellar.

What would you guys do in my position? Id love to just flog the F5 and get an FS7 and call it a day, but the Clients will never cease asking that irritating question "You got a RED?"
Click to expand...
you know the answer....if your clients want RED then that is that....you should be able to pick up a used epic pretty cheap....but be prepared to adjust to shooting with lower DR.....or sell your sony and switch to red completely and go with dragon....but be prepared to have more light available to shoot....
also: whenever i shot with my scarlet or epic, i always made sure to at least know of one close by in case the camera fails....i never actually had one fail on a shoot but i did have pretty major issues with reliability and tech support (3 months to fix a camera i literally had just bought)....
 
Ben Scott said:
As often repeated on this forum, this is absolutely, empirically untrue. Despite you building the MCP from Tron and still having issues, plenty of people are happily cutting away Red, Alexa, FS7 or F55 footage on homebrew PCs, off the shelf iMacs and standard Macbook Pros with on problems.
Click to expand...


I found that the software and version is key to success. Forget Windows Premiere CC. It's reference clock is broken. Funny thing is, while it drops frames just playing DV, it can play equally well, four layers of 4K XAVC, with three of the layers scaled and animated as picture in picture windows with 50 pixel drop shadows and no frames dropped. Premiere is just broken. It's not a hardware issue. It's a problem with, apparently, a history dating back to 2011. I missed all of this by sticking with CS6. But aside from rewrapping footage to MP4 and recoding all audio to a lossy 16-bit format, CC 2015 is the only Premiere that can understand the new CODECs. Unfortuately, on the Windows platform, it is broken and has been broken for a long time, based upon extensive reading of topics in Adobe forums about the playback issues in CC.

I can report that DaVinci Resolve 12 beta handles four cameras of XAVC with ease and single streams with no effort, while Premiere drops frames just playing DV footage! It takes three start stop start iterations before playback begins and runs stable. The initial start of play after loading a project leaves one with the impression that one needs a faster machine. But having played four PiP layers of 4K on a timeline with smooth playback tells me that the hardware has lots of headroom. And I can scrub the timeline with no lag. But pressing Play invokes some function where Premiere relies on something else for synch and that something is broken.


I'm still trying to figure out what I may be losing by shooting S-Log3 and burning a HG7 LUT into the recording. The results look excellent to me, with a lot of latitude. Of course, I have to nail the exposure during shooting. Whether there is any benefit to adding the LUT in post rather than in camera, I am not yet certain. It's so darned clean when the LUT is dropped in at recording time. Maybe because the noise is lowered by the HG7 curve and the CODEC has more resources for encoding actual scenery rather than noise. Un processed S-Log3 is pretty noisy and that noise must get encoded in the XAVC file, increasing the quantizing errors in the process and raising the artifacting to sometimes objectionable levels. Burning in the LUT seems to take a load off the encoder as the images look by far the best I've shot with the FS7.
 
didn't you recently say that you only shoot Cine EI.. to avoid "fringing" .. and for better color space.. but now you shoot custom with burnt in LUT.. ?
 
basspig said:
I found that the software and version is key to success. Forget Windows Premiere CC. It's reference clock is broken. Funny thing is, while it drops frames just playing DV, it can play equally well, four layers of 4K XAVC, with three of the layers scaled and animated as picture in picture windows with 50 pixel drop shadows and no frames dropped. Premiere is just broken. It's not a hardware issue. It's a problem with, apparently, a history dating back to 2011. I missed all of this by sticking with CS6. But aside from rewrapping footage to MP4 and recoding all audio to a lossy 16-bit format, CC 2015 is the only Premiere that can understand the new CODECs. Unfortuately, on the Windows platform, it is broken and has been broken for a long time, based upon extensive reading of topics in Adobe forums about the playback issues in CC.
Click to expand...


Poppycock. I've cut hundreds of 4k edits on Premiere CC on Windows using my home-made PC, as have countless other thousands of people.
 
basspig said:
I'm still trying to figure out what I may be losing by shooting S-Log3 and burning a HG7 LUT into the recording.
Click to expand...

Now, I may be wrong about this, but my understanding is that shooting Slog3 with a burned in LUT that matches HG7 is exactly the same as shooting HG7 in Custom. Same for all the LUT's in that group including 709 800%. Basically you are mimicking Custom without the advantages that Custom offers with WB and other cool controls and noise reduction. Unless I am missing something - its pointless.

Now if you shoot Slog3 with LC709A or an extended LUT based on 709A or something similar than you get more DR, reportedly nicer skin tones and a gentler roll off and desaturation in your highlights
 
But shooting Cine EI Slog is getting you out of REC 709 color space.. where as custom is always Sony REC 709 color space.. regardless of your settings..

Thats my belief anyway .. could be wrong..
 
Last edited:
Donny 123 said:
custom is always Sony REC 709 color space.. regardless of your settings..

Thats my belief anyway .. could be wrong..
Click to expand...

You're hardly the only person I've run into who thinks this, but it's flat out wrong.

Like a great many other Sony cameras, the PXW-FS7 offers a variety of "Standard" gamma curves in it's custom paint mode, of which R709 is merely one option. Additionally, the Custom mode offers multiple hypergammas, as well as use of the Slog3 curve (possibly SLog 2 on newer firmware).

Read the manual here, page 65:
http://www.zsyst.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Sony-PXW-FS7-Manual-110314-2.pdf
 
Sure those are gamma/log curves..(not color space/gamut) in custom the color space is 709.. custom mode matrix is for 709 color space is it not.. ? you have to be in Cine EI to get Sgamut2/Sgamut3 (.cine)
 
Last edited:
Donny 123 said:
Sure those are gamma/log curves.. but in custom the color space is 709.. ?
Click to expand...

Well, colorspace is phrase used to describe several different things, so it's easy to get confused. For instance, REC709 does get referred to as a color space, but that's really misleading when it comes to this forum. First and foremost, Rec709 is a set of specifications to standardize what defines a High Definition video signal. The specifications lay out with great detail all the technical aspects that go into making an HD video signal, including what frame rates are valid, what frame sizes are valid, how the transport signal should be arranged and timed, and yes - how color representation is defined. So, Rec709 is far more than just a color space. It's a backbone behind why HD televisions of all makes and models play nice with other equipment of all makes and all models - all the manufacturers have to conform to the same engineering specifications.

Now, to the extent that the FS7 puts out a High Definition signal that you can watch on a regular tv, it's output is "in REC709", even if you're in CineEI. Even if you're using the raw recorder, the monitor outputs have to conform to REC709, or your monitor wouldn't accept the signal. So - to an extent - the HD outputs are always REC709.

But the same distinction isn't so meaningful when we talk specifically about colors and gammas. Yes - the video outputs do have to map their output colors to REC709's allowable limits, or at least - the extended limits. But the entire principle of S-Log (and C Log, and Panalog, and Canon Log) isn't to avoid REC709 video container specifications - it's to fit an extended dynamic range into that container by using a gamma that is less natural to the human eye, but allows for deeper manipulation, recovery, and alteration in post. Some of the gammas in the FS7 are from 1-100% (legal range) for REC709 color/luma/chroma values, and some are 1-110% (extended range - not valid for final broadcast, would clip if attempted). Either way, they use the Rec 709 specification.


So, now we get to LUTs. What many people seem to be losing track of is that LUTs were intended as a tool for exposure, for dailies, and for producer video village - not for creative grading. It was a quick and dirty preview of what the final image *might* be. Since log gammas did not produce a natural looking image, they would scare non-tech people in position of power and review. Apply a LUT, and bam, you get what the natural looking exposure would be, and your producer stops freaking out. They were not intended as either a color correction filter, or output look. That's a new trend. Yes, there are now folks who have created certain LUTs that don't kill your dynamic range. But be forewarned, most of them do. Particularly if they make your image look less washed out - you're probably losing information if you're burning that in.

But, if you want to get technical about what the color space of the FS7 is...
The color space options on the PXW-FS7 are 4:2:2 10bit (for most codecs/frame rates) and 4:2:0 8bit (primarily the 4k/UHD XAVC-L codec, I believe), or 12 bit linear raw, via the back output. The PMW-F5/F55 additionally offer 1080p 4:4:4 color space, but that option hasn't been made available on the FS7, although you may be able to essentially achieve it via a raw recorder like the Odyssey.

That's your color sampling, or color space - it's how the camera makes decisions on encoding colors for transport or storage.

So, the Custom mode isn't "all REC709" in the regard you're thinking it is for color. The STD gamma called REC709 is simply the one that output an image at the gamma/brightness/contrast/etc one would expect for final television display, and yu only use it on set so the producer doesn't freak out while you quietly record Log or a Hypergamma and the colorist nods in silent approval from the back of the room.
 
Last edited:
Donny 123 said:
Sure those are gamma/log curves..(not color space/gamut) in custom the color space is 709.. custom mode matrix is for 709 color space is it not.. ? you have to be in Cine EI to get Sgamut2/Sgamut3 (.cine)
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that Custom is the old SGammut which is why Custom can result in 'The Sony Look' with the older sony colour science.
 
But color sampling is not color gamut... REC 709 is the display gamut .. and as i know it custom mode is only within this REC 709 display range.. the only way to get into a wider color gamut is cine EI.. nothing to do with sampling .. this isn't color space options (f55 has a fake S gamut preset ) in custom that the F5 and FS7 doesn't have ..
Thats why in cine EI with a burnt in LUT you can get a "nicer" picture.. because you are out of Sony REC 709 color display gamut..

"Now, to the extent that the FS7 puts out a High Definition signal that you can watch on a regular tv, it's output is "in REC709", even if you're in CineEI. Even if you're using the raw recorder, the monitor outputs have to conform to REC709, or your monitor wouldn't accept the signal. So - to an extent - the HD outputs are always REC709."

Cine EI in Slog/S gamut.. you cant put out on a REC 709 monitor ..its not within REC limits. because its a different color space.. you conform it to RED 709 in post.. monitor wont except the signal. mine does.. but its very washed out because its not REC709 color space..? you get no signal..



"Some of the gammas in the FS7 are from 1-100% (legal range) for REC709 color/luma/chroma values, and some are 1-110% (extended range - not valid for final broadcast, would clip if attempted). Either way, they use the Rec 709 specification."

Yes in custom mode.. but the Slog/sgamut 3 .. etc are not using REC 709 specifications .. you can see that on your un LUTed monitor .. ?
 
Last edited:
Yes, the color science is different between custom mode and CineEI mode. Each color science LOCKED to each mode and probably not ever going to change as Sony themselves have told me directly point blank as I've been pushing the issue for over a year for a variety of reasons despite what other "internet DP's" have contrarily stated.

custom mode on FS7/F5/F55 = old Sony original sgamut purposely used to be backwards compatible. Those are Sony's words.

cineEI mode = newer sgamut3.cine and sgamut3.

Other "mode" differences between FS7 F5 and F55:

• The F5 and F55 offer NR in cineEI mode, not the FS7.

• The F55 has a "sgamut3.cine like" matrix in custom mode which is 99.5% bang on with the same color science from cineEI mode. I tested this and charts can be downloaded here.
 
Last edited:
Lenilenapi said:
Now, I may be wrong about this, but my understanding is that shooting Slog3 with a burned in LUT that matches HG7 is exactly the same as shooting HG7 in Custom. Same for all the LUT's in that group including 709 800%. Basically you are mimicking Custom without the advantages that Custom offers with WB and other cool controls and noise reduction. Unless I am missing something - its pointless.

Now if you shoot Slog3 with LC709A or an extended LUT based on 709A or something similar than you get more DR, reportedly nicer skin tones and a gentler roll off and desaturation in your highlights
Click to expand...

There are two sets off official 3D LUTs by Sony. One set (LC709, LC709A, slog2-709, cine+709 see PDF) for sgamut/slog2, and one set for sgamut3.cine.

So where are Sony's 3D LUTs for slog3 in custom mode, or slog2 in cineEI mode? They don't exist and not withstanding that, another fact is that if you shoot in EACH mode on the camera and do apply the appropriate 3D LUT the final output will not have the exact same color rendition. Again, I'm sure everyone has seen my published tests on this. Even Sony's own LUTs won't match when you shoot in the two different modes.

I haven't tested one of the HG7 LUTs on cineEI footage vs HG7 in custom mode, but I would easily bet you money they won't look the same - unless Ben has made a really good HG7 LUT for cineEI mode that accounts for the different color science.
 
James .. as you say a lot of confusion on this point.. the camera manual wont tell you all sir..

But seriously,for quick turn around .. nothing but the usual edit software tweaks.. you can escape the much dreaded Sony REC709 color space but going to cine EI and burning in a LUT/Look .. but the FS7 really should get NR in cine Ei asap..
 
Last edited:
Donny 123 said:
didn't you recently say that you only shoot Cine EI.. to avoid "fringing" .. and for better color space.. but now you shoot custom with burnt in LUT.. ?
Click to expand...


You didn't read what I wrote. I shoot Cine EI with a burned in LUT HG7.


Editing in Premiere CC is possible, just not pleasant.
 
Interesting thread . i seemed to have kicked off a storm of interest with my mistake about HG7 LUT and HG7 being the same. :)

Dennis - where is that test you did comparing them again. Were those just charts or real live shots. I'd love to see the difference between the so-called "Sony look" and what you can get with the same gamma going through different color space. BTW - I feel I've been able to get good color for years from Sony but I'm not opposed to improving .

Lenny
 
Yes Lenny.. even obviously experienced DP,s like James arnt clear about color space.. either was I till I got an F5 and really had to learn about all this stuff.. well learn some of it anyway.. . now I only shoot Cine EI.. a lot is Slog3/cine so it has to be anyway .. but for a lot of other shoots that don't want Slog footage.. I now just burn in a LUT .. even stuck with pre set WB.. I still it looks better than being able to WB in custom .. the first time was a bit scary as it seems an odd thing to do.. but now I haven't shot anything in custom for ages..
Some people have found a look in custom they like and all power to them.. but I just never could.. in that sense the burn in LUT is very easy .. I have 4 user LUTS in the camera.. and thats all I need.. and the non REC709 color space is so much better for WB.. in my experience .. but it takes some study to get your head around it..
 
Actually I'm doing that quite a bit also, but I've always been using an extended LC709A LUT so I'm also getting the advantage of the full SLOg3 dynamic range dynamic range as well as the LC709A subtle desaturation in highlights . Frankly I haven't paid as much attention to the difference in color. And honestly I've always felt I got good color in custom. However I use a Color matrix I made myself that I've been using ever since my EX-1 and F3 and I feel like I get pretty good color right off the bat with that. It ported over to the F3 fairly easily .
I don't know whether I just lucked onto apretty good matrix Or I'm just an insensitive hack corporate filmmaker. Maybe a little of both. Nevertheless I am enjoyin shooting cine EI with the burned LUTs .
I do think it would be very educational to see some comparisons of a hyper gamma in custom versus a hypergamma LUT inCine EI , is that would clearly set apart just the color gamuts .
I'll get to running that test myself eventually but if anyone has that footage it would be great to look at .
 
Donny 123 said:
Yes Lenny.. even obviously experienced DP,s like James arnt clear about color space..
Click to expand...

You're right insofar as I wasn't understanding that you were very specifically talking about wide color gammut. You initiially referred to "color space" and that phrase itself can be applied to a number of different elements, which I described accurately enough, prior to you being precise about exactly which component you were concerned about. So really, I'd say it's less an issue of my knowledge base than of there being key terms that can refer to multiple distinct things, and a lack of clear delineation in that conversation.

So, apologies for misunderstanding what you were discussing - you weren't exceedingly clear.

Luckily for me I own an F35 and a couple F23s, so when I want to shoot with the wider gammut color filters and processing, that's what I'll use.

The FS7 is still a budget "right gear for the price" camera, so I'm not surprised they hold back some features from the F65/F55/F5.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top