FS7: Question to RED, or higher end camera owners on their FS7 interest.

A bit of topic drift but the film I shot on the BMC - which I think has similar or the same sensor as the Coin - we did some night stuff - at 800 - with some lights - and personally I thought it worked out fine.

Maybe im old school but I dont feel a need for 120000 ISO - also most night shoots have some rim lighting and the like and that just tends to blow at 120000

PBs footage A7s of Brighton pier was a good example - as soon as he made the dark beach light the practicals on the pier turned nuclear which seemed pointless.

S
 
I think with today's computers, working with RAW from RED is not a big deal to say that it's a "trap".

What's really great about how RED decided to implement a RAW workflow process is that the editor doesn't even need to know jack about LUTs, log, or advanced color grading. As long as the DP or AC had some sense to setup a nice look in-camera (and even if they didn't) that information goes along the RAW file as metadata and transforms the RAW video to look the exact same as it did to the people shooting with it on-set - or they can just pick some standard RED color and gamma, etc..

I know network shows being shot here in Toronto that use RED. Really, 8 years later RAW is no big deal anymore.

P.S. I capitalize RAW because raw means raw like raw meat. Sorry you don't like the caps, but I do. :)
 
Redcode, redcine and r3d files are the best thing about working in a Red environment. Great file sizes and so much scope to play with and push/pull footage. If redcode were licenced for other camera makers it would be my dream come true.
 
I keep forgetting how camera forums are a place for 90% pointless arguments and grandstanding (and why I rarely bother using them). I think I've been doing this a lot longer than you Star so let's dial down the BS. You think I don't know that already? I first shot on a red back in 2007 when they came out; I know all about their workflow as well as what computers are doing as of now. Posts like that are pretty self-absorbed and naive. This is dvxuser after all so I should know better I guess.

I'll restate it for the sake of the original poster. If you do a lot of professional work you will find many, many post paths that are not set up or interested in working with a raw workflow. People can nerd-out on what computer and camera does what and update all your crap every 2 seconds, and live in your own little world, but the reality is that most projects require a ton of working professionals that go home at the end of the day and could care less about what the latest thing is or what you "think" should be best. They know their jobs well and often take years to change the core ways in which they work. Perfect example: I just finished delivering files two days ago for a very well known alcohol brand and their marketing company contact barely understood how I was able to give them 10bit Prores files straight out of the camera. He thought I was from the future and loved how easy it made it for him to show clips to the suits and how fast it would make editing. If I would have insisted on bringing a Red to that shoot it would have been a true nightmare. This is one good example so let's not get all upset and tell me how some other shoot was different. I already know that and have worked them as well... this is just one good example of how things go in the real world.

Fine, then why not type everything in all caps then? I prefer to at least to attempt to seem educated when I type. Look like an ass then, it's your call.

I'll avoid responding any further to this thread. Hopefully the OP got something out of it. Avoid forums when it comes down to it. Test and test again for what you need specifically.
 
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starcentral said:
... I know from my F3 days how many guys spent $4k-$8k for an external recorder (like a PIX or Gemini), media, cables, etc.. who would easily rather have just spent $10k extra on a camera without them and all the headache. For some of the ex-F3 guys it was quite easy to justify the F5 because with the built-in SR444 codec your going to get as high quality as you would with an external 3rd party recorder. With the F5/F55 add another $5k and you get an R5 with a snap-on module, or just rent it when you need it - again no cables.

What that is worth to each person is different. But its still something to factor in when making these decisions.
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Yes (and, by the way, I like these ... conversations).

Cion will shoot an internal 4444 ProRes and that will be enough for a majority of orders. The file size of 4444 is about 1 TB per hour of footage, which is just about equal to a 1:3 compressed Raw, and I think that should be sufficient for even the VFX.

And it's all internal (to SSD).

IMO, FS-7 is marginally self-crippled. It could probably offer a higher bit rate but 240 Mbps should suffice for most small screen projects anyway.
 
I always wondered what the appeal of RED Raw was. Perhaps I don't understand it, but Raw from RED cameras seems about as useful "terminology" wise as ProRes, DNxHD, Cineform etc. RED perhaps does implement a great compression method, but honestly... how close to lossless is it? And compared to what? I mean, an easy example are actual .dng frames coming from BMD cameras, which can later be compressed into ProRes etc. Or you can shoot ProRes right off the bat. With redcode there's no standard to judge it by. It may as well just be another codec like any other camera (but obviously a great one at that).
 
VinceinLA said:
I keep forgetting how camera forums are a place for 90% pointless arguments and grandstanding (and why I rarely bother using them). I think I've been doing this a lot longer than you Star so let's dial down the BS. You think I don't know that already? I first shot on a red back in 2007 when they came out; I know all about their workflow as well as what computers are doing as of now. Posts like that are pretty self-absorbed and naive. This is dvxuser after all so I should know better I guess.

I'll restate it for the sake of the original poster. If you do a lot of professional work you will find many, many post paths that are not set up or interested in working with a raw workflow. People can nerd-out on what computer and camera does what and update all your crap every 2 seconds, and live in your own little world, but the reality is that most projects require a ton of working professionals that go home at the end of the day and could care less about what the latest thing is or what you "think" should be best. They know their jobs well and often take years to change the core ways in which they work. Perfect example: I just finished delivering files two days ago for a very well known alcohol brand and their marketing company contact barely understood how I was able to give them 10bit Prores files straight out of the camera. He thought I was from the future and loved how easy it made it for him to show clips to the suits and how fast it would make editing. If I would have insisted on bringing a Red to that shoot it would have been a true nightmare. This is one good example so let's not get all upset and tell me how some other shoot was different. I already know that and have worked them as well... this is just one good example of how things go in the real world.

Fine, then why not type everything in all caps then? I prefer to at least to attempt to seem educated when I type. Look like an ass then, it's your call.

I'll avoid responding any further to this thread. Hopefully the OP got something out of it. Avoid forums when it comes down to it. Test and test again for what you need specifically.
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Vince there is no need to be rude or get angry. It's just a discussion and honestly who cares that you shot with a RED One camera in 2007, and who cares how I or others spell RAW. You're obviously reading way too much into what I wrote.

I certainly didn't mean to state the obvious benefit of working with RED footage in the year 2014, but if you refer to being "trapped" by a RAW workspace with RED what exactly would you call XAVC from the FS7? Since you mentioned you do a lot of work professionally can you honestly say that XAVC is somehow already or will be more widely adapted than RAW from RED is? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that.

It does raise a very good point however. If you're considering the FS7 and XAVC isn't going to fit in your post workflow, or your clients, then it very well means you transcode footage later yourself before delivering it (like it might with RED depending) or you go for the $2000 ProRes option. This brings the FS7 cost up to $10k...
 
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To address the OP... investing heavily in a camera package is a math problem. Figure out your expected rate of return on the investment. None of us know who your clients and prospective clients are, or how realistic any growth aspirations you may have are. If you think a $40k camera investment will provide a better return than a $10k investment, then go for it. Just keep in mind that you have to include the depreciation and reduced resale value in your calculations.

And using a better camera may help you get where you want to in your career, but if you get far enough it won't matter what camera you do or don't own - you'll get hired for you.
 
L1N3ARX said:
I always wondered what the appeal of RED Raw was. Perhaps I don't understand it, but Raw from RED cameras seems about as useful "terminology" wise as ProRes, DNxHD, Cineform etc. RED perhaps does implement a great compression method, but honestly... how close to lossless is it? ...
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Going off memory, it's "mathematically lossless" at 3:1 compression and "visually lossless" at 6:1.

Mind you, if you go to the Apple ProRes White Paper, 4444 is deemed "visually lossless" too (plus, they have their copy rating guide too).

Then, if that "5%" discussion can be brought up again, what one can observe on a calibrated 28" 4K monitor at a point blank range isn't likely to matter to even a discerning viewer in a 4K movie theater, on his home 70" 4K flat screen or on a 720p 11" mobile device. What you're basically doing at that point is trying to get as perfect of an archive copy as possible for future generations.
 
Great convo, dudes.
I'm in a pickle.
Got a fantastic demo F5 + Raw package for a steal about 8 months ago. I love it. Suits me perfectly. I do mainly 99% music videos, based in South Africa.
My clients are from all over africa.
Heres the pickle, 99% of them ask for the red epic, but don't wanna pay the rental. My competition director/owner ops have epics, and I sometimes lose new customers due to not having the epic, and the loyal customers I do have, I have to constantly explain why the F5 + raw is an equal beast to the epic.
I think that at this point of the game in my industry, in Africa, whether I shoot FS7, FS700 raw, Red, F5/55, Alexa, it really doesn't matter. Its now all about the concept, lighting, composition, treatment, talent performance, composition, editing, grading etc etc, and not what camera I use.
But to constantly defend my camera choice is tiring, irritating and downright silly.

This pickle Im in is unique to the music video industry in Africa. Believe it or not, its a BIG industry, and a lot of money going around. Artists pay in dollars, and Im up against other director owner/ops who have epics.
I have loyal clients that understand the proof is in the pudding, and I get good results, but they can't help themselves wanting the epic, still.
Some of them don't even know what the epic looks like, nor do they know there are like 7 different Red cameras. maybe I should put a RED sticker over the sony badge???

The epic is the rockstar of cameras here in Africa. Gotta hand to Jim, Red's marketing has been stellar.

What would you guys do in my position? Id love to just flog the F5 and get an FS7 and call it a day, but the Clients will never cease asking that irritating question "You got a RED?"
 
Purchase the RED on credit. Average out the monthly payment and think of it as "renting the camera" for that monthly payment...for the month. Then offer it to your clients as an up charge. You will boost the budget of the project by just a little...and do it a few times a month...you won't lose money on projects and you will most likely come in over your monthly payment (just with the up charge option) to knock down the principal on the amortized payment. You won't feel the financial hit if you do it right and your business will grow.

You also have an advantage over your competition if you can offer the other cameras you already shoot with...with the addition of an Epic (or Dragon if you want to put them in their place).

Just a thought.

If you have a client base to support it...and your losing customers because of the requested tool...go for it. Worst case scenario, keep it for a year and sell it. You'll only be out a few thousand and it would be a fun market test for you.
 
To the OP, you should think long and hard (as you seem already to be doing) about what direction you want to go as well.
I do a lot of different type of work, TVC, docu, action sport, some drama and art films.
RED is a hard sell in the TV world here (unless we make our own production ;-)) and people needs still to be educated and it can be tiering. This was the reason j bought a C300 this summer. I proposed Red and a prores recorder, they wanted a C300, the colorist begged for an Atomos recorder to get prores files, so I did that.
It could have been achieved better results with the same file type if we used the Red, but it would have cost a bit more.
The FS7 is destined to work on a sport show I'm working on, we went from EX-3 and using RedEpic as slow mo camera , to F55, but we are often traveling abroad and to bring 2-3 F55 fully rigged adds a lot of bulk, so the FS7 fits perfectly for this gig.
 
Jusgorilla said:
... The epic is the rockstar of cameras here in Africa. Gotta hand to Jim, Red's marketing has been stellar.

What would you guys do in my position? Id love to just flog the F5 and get an FS7 and call it a day, but the Clients will never cease asking that irritating question "You got a RED?"
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From a purely business perspective - there are sellable cusomers and then there are the dug-in customers. The problem is that both pay.

Thus, from a purely business perspective -

1) Learn how to operate Red, as if you owned one.

2) Do the basic accounting calculations - own vs. rent (including renting out your own cam, if you are not using it) and the number of jobs you can realistically get or lose - the opportunity cost is also important here - if you had it at all time.

3) Improve your sales skills. A good salesperson, to use an old cliche, will sell what he has in stock, and not necessarily what a customer asks for. Mind you, this is not to say that a customer is allowed to feel screwed because that kills you reputation.

4) Make a side-by-side reel of your camera and Red and see if you can match the shots. Once again, your customers might want a David Fincher look on an Ed Wood budget, so the your presentation will need to be top notch.

5) Be prepared to walk away from some transactions because, once you are known as the "cheap guy", you will find it hard to shed the label and it will cost you more money in the long run.

Those are off the top of my (sometimes pointy) head.
 
I guess I don't completely understand the OP's point of view here. The Dragon and the FS7, which is what the discussion is really about, are such different beasts in terms of on-set workflow. The kinds of battery you use, how long they last, how fast cards fill up, etc. The overall budget of the projects you take it on are very different, too. The footage are obviously very different in terms of resolution and color space. I just don't think the two cameras play in the same arena.

If you're thinking about personal ownership, I think it comes back to the old math problem that someone already mentioned. I will say this, stretching yourself to make a big camera purchase is just not a great idea in general. Of course, I don't know how much you're REALLY stretching or not, but you don't know what the future is gonna hold, and sinking money into a camera package you don't absolutely 100% need just doesn't seem like it makes sense to me. It feels like you should already be certain about it if you should be personally owning a Dragon.


Personal story: I was considering a Dragon earlier this year, but the financial commitment was just too great. My FS7 just arrived this week, and I don't regret the decision (for now).

I think the FS7 is a more appropriate personal camera (for me) because it's so much cheaper and can take on a lot of the smaller jobs where there might not be that much budget for equipment rentals. Maybe you can split the difference and do an F5 + lots of accessories to make your package really complete, or maybe get an FS7 and a set of cine-primes, be it Superspeeds or CN-E's or whatever. There's a middle ground here somewhere, but something tells me that if you're even considering the FS7, you probably don't really NEED a Dragon.
 
RAW is used to differentiate the term 'raw footage' from 'RAW footage' which both mean completely different things. Get over yourself saying people seem uneducated.
 
I think FS7 vs F5 is mud water. But F55 is clear superior. If you want to pay for this or not is different talk.

Alexa, F65 etc are much higher league than even F55 and FS7 never will be same league. People who want Alexa or F65 will not even consider FS7. Why?

Red user maybe will because red is cheaper and red users are more owner operator. But I doubt Alexa owner would sell for FS7 for example. But Epic can make better cinema image for sure IMO.
 
Jusgorilla said:
Heres the pickle, 99% of them ask for the red epic, but don't wanna pay the rental. My competition director/owner ops have epics, and I sometimes lose new customers due to not having the epic, and the loyal customers I do have, I have to constantly explain why the F5 + raw is an equal beast to the epic.
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Just show them your reel, your work is fantastic enough that they can not dispute it. Also give them a price to shoot with RED, say "here's my rate if you want RED EPIC, but this is my rate if you go with my kit" - again back it up with your work.

It's normal that everyone on planet asks "do you have RED" or "was that shot with RED" because its become synonymous with independent film or owner/operator/DP. No one knows what is a F5, F55, or FS7 so you're always going to be educating. That's just the way it is unfortunately.

RED stickers are a good idea too. :cool:
 
starcentral said:
Just show them your reel, your work is fantastic enough that they can not dispute it. Also give them a price to shoot with RED, say "here's my rate if you want RED EPIC, but this is my rate if you go with my kit" - again back it up with your work.

It's normal that everyone on planet asks "do you have RED" or "was that shot with RED" because its become synonymous with independent film or owner/operator/DP. No one knows what is a F5, F55, or FS7 so you're always going to be educating. That's just the way it is unfortunately.

RED stickers are a good idea too. :cool:
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Good call, don't even tell them you don't own one. Just give them a price for Epic, Dragon,....what ever. Roll the cost into the project. They have not idea you don't own each.
 
There is one more way to look at a RED Epic/Dragon (or F55) purchase, and it´s a bit like they way I reasoned 3,5 years ago when we got our EPIC.
I reasoned that if I bought the camera, I could use it whenever I wanted and really get to know the camera, so even if it would take a long way to pay off, I would get a Reducation from owning the camera. We shot a lot of stuff with it, and we ended up putting it togheter for a TV action sport series. We managed to sell those 5 episodes to the second biggest broadcaster here in Norway this fall.
We could maybe have ended up there with lesser cameras, but the final product would look a lot less impressive.

Of course this approach won´t work so well now, as 4K is "everywhere", it was´t 3,5 years ago, so the owner club was a lot more "elitist".

Having the camera and showing it to producers and directors (bringing it along for a very reasonable price the first time) turned people around.
The TVC that was planned as a 5D shoot, quikly got around and chose the Epic instead. It was a long series of films, so I could lower the price a little knowing it was a return customer.

The only problem, is that now I hate not shooting 4K or higher if I´m in a great location, knowing the shelf life of the footage drops dramatically if it´s anything less.
We tried to intercut to 5D footage in our TV series, but it just looked so bad compared to the 4K cameras we used that only a very low light sequence made it into the final edit. Any stockshot or action shot, just looked like crap in comparison.
 
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