Question for Jan about a AVCHD DVX

J

John Trent

Well-known member
Jan Crittenden Livingston,

Ever since reading on May 11th, the Pannasonic/Sony announcement of the new AVCHD format, I've been hoping for someone to ask about a DVX version? Since no one else has - I will. Will there be a AVCHD DVX, and if so, when?

This is my first post directed to you, so just let me say I've always appreciated your presence here. The help and information you've provided is going to make it easier for this "Sony guy" to convert to the Pannasonic camp. I like the way Pannasonic told it's customers long in advance of the coming DVXb and HVX models. I'm hoping for the same kind of advance information on a possible AVCHD DVX.

If it is a definite NO (there won't be AVCHD DVX) or that there are "no current plans for this camera", I hope that you will let us know this information as well. I don't want to wait for a camera that's not even coming.

I really don't think it'd be competition for the HVX - AVCHD's inferior colourspace and GOP will see to that. But for those of us on a lower budget and those that need more recording time than P2 allows, this camera would be ideal.

I hope you'll respond. Thank you very much.
 
I doubt we'll see an AVCHD DVX.

Isn't AVCHD being aimed more at consumers anyway? I haven't heard anything about it being a prosumer format.
 
AVC-HD is indeed aimed at consumers.

But then again, so was HDV, and that didn't stop the HD100 and XLH1 and Z1 from coming out.

And AVC-HD is as good as, or roundly superior to HDV in every conceivable category. So I fully expect that we'll see prosumer AVC-HD gear someday.

I'd love to see them add AVC-HD to the HVX200. That would be phenomenal -- a 5x increase in recording times on the P2 cards, for those who are willing to work with a long-GOP format...
 
It's been about three months since I asked about a AVC-HD DVX. I don't know anything more than I did then. No news at all. Very depressing.

Every other manufacturer has announced their second-generation camcorders. I know Panasonic was last to the dance with the HVX, so there is still hope, but I'm running out of time. I'm thinking of shooting with the camera I've already got or buying a new one, neither of which will give me the look I want. It's pretty uninspiring to put so much work into a script, actors, location, lighting, sets, etc. and know the end result is going to look like crap because of the camera. I don't have the money to change cameras like some change socks. What I buy I'm going to be stuck with. I'd like to be stuck with a AVC-HD DVX. I could do a lot with a camera like that.

Does ANYONE know ANYTHING about this camcorder? WILL IT EVEN COME OUT THIS YEAR? Any rumours, guesses, or crystal ball readings are welcome. I'm desperate.

Thank you and goodnight.
 
John Trent said:
It's pretty uninspiring to put so much work into a script, actors, location, lighting, sets, etc. and know the end result is going to look like crap because of the camera.
Click to expand...

With all due respect, I suspect that if the elements you mentioned - script and actors... let alone also location, lighting, sets, etc. are all up to par, the camera will hardly be a factor.

I'm not saying it isn't fun, or that it isn't even inspiring for a certain kind of filmmaker, to have just the right camera for just the right look (I sympathize, as I too have this view/weakness/hobby/obsession), just that the way you put it is so blatantly reversing the priorities.

Now that I've done my part of dutifully pointing out "it's all about the story", I join you in your frustration.

I simply cannot believe that Panasonic is willing to sit on old cameras at this point. They've gained huge credibility and good will with the dvx100 series among the indie crowd. It would be stupid to let all that go to waste - they must keep up the momentum... if they don't, Canon (and maybe even Sony, though that's looking doubtful) will be more than happy to jump in and sweep away the rewards. That means Panny must come out with some new cameras to continue addressing the dvx100 market... the 200 is not the same market.

I think based purely on marketing strategy, Panasonic is going to come out with a followup to the 100... AVC-HD seems a natural candidate, but not the only option.

Here's to hoping it happens soon... Canon's A1 is coming out mid October... if the A1 is anything like it seems it could be on paper, then I just don't see who is going to buy a new 100b, even if it's $1000 less. And every month that the A1 is on the market without a counter from Panasonic, is a ton of sales lost to Panny. I cannot imagine they'd be foolish enough to allow that. Ergo, I figure: new Panasonics to come out by November of 2006 :)
 
why not add the AVCHD to a DVX100? The HVX200 already has 16:9 and that P2 card thing. I guess you could get rid of the tape, but I would rather see it on a DVX100.

Then they would have a reason to make it 16:9.
 
There has been no indication as to what they will do with AVC-HD, other than to say that they will support recording to SD cards. Other than that, it's been zipped lips over in Secaucus NJ.

I've nagged for certain products to be developed, but very clearly they've been saying nothing. No announcements, no hints, no confirmation, no denial. Nothing.

So -- if you need a product now, get the one that does the best job now. Understand that AVC-HD product will be coming out, but nobody knows when. We don't know if they'll announce something in October (like Nordahl predicted) or if it'll be NAB 2007 before we see something. There has been no indication, the only one who's gone on record as predicting anything at all is Nordahl.
 
Then again....

Then again....

Barry_Green said:
But then again, so was HDV, and that didn't stop the HD100 and XLH1 and Z1 from coming out.
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That didn't stop Panasonic putting mini DV (a consumer format) into the HVX!

Also purely out of interest would putting AVCHD into an HVX be a firmware upgrade type thing or would it have to be a major rework?
Cheers

Indy... in India
 
John Trent said:
It's been about three months since I asked about a AVC-HD DVX. I don't know anything more than I did then. No news at all. Very depressing.
Click to expand...

Didn't see the original question. Sorry been pretty busy.

Every other manufacturer has announced their second-generation camcorders. I know Panasonic was last to the dance with the HVX, so there is still hope, but I'm running out of time. I'm thinking of shooting with the camera I've already got or buying a new one, neither of which will give me the look I want.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that a film shot with the DVX100B made it all the way to the Academy Awards last year and was in the same game as the March of the Penquins.

It's pretty uninspiring to put so much work into a script, actors, location, lighting, sets, etc. and know the end result is going to look like crap because of the camera. I don't have the money to change cameras like some change socks.
Click to expand...

Talent in front of the camera, talent behind the camera does more for the film than anything else.

What I buy I'm going to be stuck with. I'd like to be stuck with a AVC-HD DVX. I could do a lot with a camera like that.
Click to expand...

I would recommend either a DVX, an HVX or is you don't want to buy but rather rent, an SDX or a Varicam.

Does ANYONE know ANYTHING about this camcorder? WILL IT EVEN COME OUT THIS YEAR? Any rumours, guesses, or crystal ball readings are welcome. I'm desperate.
Click to expand...

AVCHD is still very much in its infancy. There are a number of things that have to happen before it really blossoms for the indy. The first is an iteration that allows for I frame only recording. (Long GOP recording does not do 24P any favors.) This is the AVC-Intra that we have been talking about. NLEs have to pick it up and work with it, I mean really work with it and that means, that it is really doubtful that it will be this year. Next year maybe.

Point is, buy a camera when you need it and make sure that it does what you want it to do. The current round of cameras do a great job, and many of the films created have done very well for the filmmaker that made them. The only reason a film made with the current round of availble cameras would look like crap is that the filmmaker did not put forth the effort to get the best out of the camera.

All the best,

Jan
Thank you and goodnight.[/QUOTE]
 
How about an assumption of what should/will/may happen.....

1. All consumer cameras are destined to be HardDisk media in the near future. (Flash in the longer term)
2. The joint development of the AVC codec by Sony/Pana would mean that
their model of rollout in one area or more is similar.
3. Assuming this is consumer - then Panasonic should be moving to Hard Disk on it's consumer 3CCD range with the AVC codec to give the much anticipated Hi Def for "Mom and Pop"
4. The future offshoot will be a lighter spinoff of the HVX without the DV tape drive and the AVC Codec in camera to get the most of the P2 cards (By this time I assume we will have at least 12 GB P2 media since we will probably be seeing this around 2007.*
5. If you removed the tape drive of an HVX you already have the replacement of the DVX - So I imagine rather that the DVX will just be discontinued and the indie film/ prosumer will upgrade over time to the HVX202.
6. The real question i how the market is going to shift with the new acquisition methods and distribution via the internet etc. which would be a deterining factor in how Panasonic will approach the next phase of their rollout.
I imagine RED has at least got them thinking and perhaps it is enough to motivate them to bring out a product which has got higher specs in relation to what people need. I mean we all love the idea of one day affording to go "RED" however the practical side of the coin is - service, parts, backup, availability.

Anyone who can holdout till mid 2007 and make do with their current equipment is going to have a good idea of which manufacturer is going to offer them the best product for their application and probably get a good long run with whatever they choose. Presently we are in a "Switch" transition to HD with everyone backing a different horse.
I just think we should at least let them out of the gate and see who is ahead at the first corner.......
 
Here's my assumption (and we all know what happens when you ass-u-me)
1-Canon will wet our taste buds with the phenomenal A1 HDV.
2-Prior to it's release in mid Oct. Panny will leak it's DVX replacement.
3-I will still buy the Canon A1. Because the Panny won't be available until January and only record to SD cards($$$)
4-Using the Canon A1 to jumpstart my HiDef advertising career I will from this point on remain 'Canon Loyal'.
5-Panny will file for bankruptcy and Canon will become President of the US.:(

Please understand that these assumptions are based on time-tested management and socio-economic forecasting techniques I've honed throughout my years. I could be wrong, but I'm probably right:)
 
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fantasticfilm said:
1. All consumer cameras are destined to be HardDisk media in the near future. (Flash in the longer term)
Click to expand...

SD Card will be part of the very first AVCHD camera from Panasonic Consumer

we will have at least 12 GB P2 media since we will probably be seeing this around 2007.*
Click to expand...

16GB will be the next P2 size and it will be in early 2007.


Hope this helps,

Jan
 
Arrrrgh!

Panny should start writing screenplays!

They're really good at keeping us in suspense!

Either way, thank you Jan, both for your response and your involvement with these boards.

I'm sure we all appreciate it.
 
Jan Crittenden,

Thank you very much for shedding light on this topic. I appreciate it more than you know. Filmmaking is very important to my life. I find it's best to collect as much information as possible before making important decisions, and your input here really helps.

Jan_Crittenden said:
AVCHD is still very much in its infancy. There are a number of things that have to happen before it really blossoms for the indy. The first is an iteration that allows for I frame only recording. (Long GOP recording does not do 24P any favors.) This is the AVC-Intra that we have been talking about. NLEs have to pick it up and work with it, I mean really work with it and that means, that it is really doubtful that it will be this year. Next year maybe.
Click to expand...
[/QUOTE]

If I read you correctly, it sounds like a AVC-HD DVX isn't ever going to happen. AVC-Intra only (no long GOP 24P cams) is where Panasonic is headed. Thanks for letting me know. I wouldn't want to waste time, waiting for a camcorder that isn't coming.

Since I've got your ear could you answer two other questions? It's commonly thought that there will never be a 16:9 DVX (mini-DV only), or a HDV DVX. This is true, is it not?

All the best,

John Trent
 
Here here!!!! A good story, well shot well acted..well told....its about content....sometimes the gear head thing here drives me nuts...we are supposed to relate and connect to our audience..not impress our colleagues. Write something, shoot something, touch a heart,a soul, cause someone to reflect.....


Jan_Crittenden said:
Didn't see the original question. Sorry been pretty busy.



Keep in mind that a film shot with the DVX100B made it all the way to the Academy Awards last year and was in the same game as the March of the Penquins.



Talent in front of the camera, talent behind the camera does more for the film than anything else.



I would recommend either a DVX, an HVX or is you don't want to buy but rather rent, an SDX or a Varicam.



AVCHD is still very much in its infancy. There are a number of things that have to happen before it really blossoms for the indy. The first is an iteration that allows for I frame only recording. (Long GOP recording does not do 24P any favors.) This is the AVC-Intra that we have been talking about. NLEs have to pick it up and work with it, I mean really work with it and that means, that it is really doubtful that it will be this year. Next year maybe.

Point is, buy a camera when you need it and make sure that it does what you want it to do. The current round of cameras do a great job, and many of the films created have done very well for the filmmaker that made them. The only reason a film made with the current round of availble cameras would look like crap is that the filmmaker did not put forth the effort to get the best out of the camera.

All the best,

Jan
Thank you and goodnight.
Click to expand...
[/QUOTE]
 
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Camera Expert said:
[F New Roman]You definitely won’t see a Standard Definition DVX type camcorder and Panasonic is not part of the HDV club. [/FONT]
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Yeah, but everyone said Canon would never release a fixed lens 3 1/3" ccd camcorder, including Canon (when I called them).

Everyone said, Sony will NEVER do 24P because they're stuck on 1080i, and 24P isn't even listed in the HDV listings for 1080.

Every company is doing the unexpected. Even JVC. People thought they'd follow the G(ee)Y('s it))H(ave)D(efects in the)100(s ?):) with a fixed lens version, but instead they go and release more expensive versions of the same cam (ok 60p). Sorry about the gyhd100 crack, but you see, I once thought she was the prettiest girl around. I was going to marry her, but she had so many issues...she drove me away.:crybaby:

My point is every company is surprising us. So, if Panasonic isn't going to release a AVC-HD DVX, what are they going to do? Are they going to sit this one out? I'd love it if they figured, "hey, we have a price gap and people seem to want a HDV model DVX, let's give it to them". You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. Okay, given that Panasonic is still slagging HDV, it isn't likely. I'd settle for a 16:9 DVX. Isn't the DVX rebate expiring in days? What will Panasonic do?

As far as "story" being the most important thing. That goes without saying. So much, in fact, that I'm tired of people saying it. Barry Green had a great rant on this recently. I searched for it but I can't find it. If anyone could provide a link, I'd be eternally grateful. Thanks.
 
It seems to me you may see a lower end version of the hvx, using the avc deal and recording to either p2 or sd. Hopefuly p2, so as to help that technology along (price gb), but probably sd or something, as it would be a 4:2:0 cam, and not the 4:2:2 of dvcpro. An hvx100 or something??
Personally, I would love to see as many new products that come from panny include p2 as possible. We have to get that technology out there. I want it to be, so we can see those price drops and gb increases. The advent of express card starting to take over laptops, has me just a bit concerned.
Anyways, I bet for a inbetween dvx and hvx with the avc 4:2:0

Jason
 
I would like to think that Panasonic will make a venture into the territory of the Z1E, new canons etc.

At the moment they are not even competing in this section. You can say what you like about the HVX but it is not a rival to the HDV cams as they are not a rival to the HVX. Why?...............P2 is why. DVCproHD is why. The HVX, I believe, is on a higher place when it comes to production. It's worth paying the extra for relative ease of editing DVCproHD as opposed to HDV.....but only if you can afford it.

I think a DVX style cam with the AVCHD codec could be a real winner. I for one would bite pannys hand off for one if they made a good job of it.

I used to think that P2 would be OK for corporate style stuff until my last project. Now i'll say this.....it was shot on DV with the DVX100. But, if I had wanted to shoot HD I would have liked to go with the HVX. Only problem being is that the interview shoot lasted for 55 minutes. You could say why not offload the cards half way through. Fair enough but, the interviewee was a 90 year old guy who had to endure a flight which he didn't enjoy to do the Scottish War Museum a favour. He obviously was not comfortable being in an elongated interview situation and I think mucking around with P2 cards would have made the situation worse. Still so many P2 drawbacks especially to those on a budget shooting large quantities of material.

Time will tell. But will it be in time for me not to jump ship to sony, canon, jvc etc.......best pull the finger out guys, the market wont wait for you.

Jon
 
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